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The guy I love to hate!

January 14, 2009

I get messages from a lot of guys that play baseball, from little league to college. I wanted to pass along a website that is run by the man working me out right now. The man I love to cuss at right now really. This guy is one of the new breed of trainers, much like Dave Page (Red Sox Strength Coach), Paul Lessard (Head Trainer for the Red Sox) and the folks over at Athletes Performance (Still the best facility with the smartest staff I’ve ever been around)that understand baseball and the work needed to train the right way to get into baseball shape.

Check out

39 Comments leave one →
  1. Randy permalink
    January 14, 2009 4:56 pm

    I hear even Dr. Craig Morgan endorses this guy. Great Stuff!

  2. January 14, 2009 10:06 pm

    Interesting read. Thanks for passing it along!

  3. Greg T permalink
    January 15, 2009 12:56 pm

    Hi Curt. It sounds like you are trying to get in pitching shape. Is that correct? If so where would you like to pitch??

  4. jeffglosh15 permalink
    January 15, 2009 1:27 pm

    Obviously these guys are good. They train profesinol athlets, who make millions of dollars a year, for a multi billion dollar team. The Sox are the best and they expect the best from every one, from starting players to the front office to the traing and coaching staff. Nothing but the best for the best

  5. Chris permalink
    January 15, 2009 4:31 pm

    Eric Cressey on Curt’s blog! Eric’s blog is one of my favorites and he is one of the best guys out there writing about training. Two of my favorite blogs have officially collided, awesome.

  6. DONNA BLANC permalink
    January 16, 2009 5:48 am

    Really great that it sounds like you are working towards pitching again. I know that it is not easy but hang in there. Any thoughts about where you want to pitch? Now that the New York Mets have lost out on Lowe they need a starting pitcher and you would be great,as always. Seriously,any thoughts about which teams you would consider and which you would not?

  7. January 16, 2009 2:30 pm

    Yep – Eric’s baseball info is unbelievable – I think there are too many programs, both in high school and college, that are still doing a lot of the wrong stuff for their athletes – particularly pitchers –

    We need to get the word out about this new breed of trainers and the proper way to train for this sport –

  8. Steve Sullivan permalink
    January 19, 2009 12:18 pm

    Curt

    I see we have not made the trip to Zephyrhills yet. Like your good self, Mr Cressey is seriously lacking when it comes to training pitchers.

    Mr Cressey tells us that 50% of a pitcher’s power comes from the lower extremities. I assume by that nebulous statement he means the legs. I am sure that you are familiar with the term “kinetic chain”. The scientifically challenged like Mr Cressey like to throw these terms around to impress unsuspecting Bostonians, who should know better.

    The stride contributes nothing to release velocity. For the kinetic chain to work each segment in the chain has to contribute to the forward velocity of the baseball. When the stride foot of traditional pitchers lands, the baseball is still going backwards. Just look at film of yourself. There goes the kinetic chain as far as the stride -legs- go. I think you guys have a trainer from ASMI working for you. He will confirm that when the stride foot of elite pitchers -that would be you- lands they still have some degrees of outward rotation of their humerus remaining before they have the baseball in a position to drive toward home plate. This is why my fellow Georgian, Mr Smoltz, has had so many elbow procedures. But that’s another story.

    I don’t particularly care if you choose to believe what Mr Cressey has to say but I don’t want teenagers doing the squats and Cleans, etc that inevitably result from listening to the Eric Cressey’s of the world.

    I will say it is great that you have this forum to warn the good citizens of my home town of the voodoo science that is so prevalent in baseball. Freedom of speech is so so important as I am sure you believe. As you know, preventing speech in defense of our young sons would be a sin of the highest magnitude. So on behalf of the young ballplayers in Boston…..thank you. .

    Steve Sullivan

  9. January 19, 2009 9:09 pm

    I interviewed Dave Page just a few weeks ago. He’s a great guy and touches on a lot of what Eric Cressey preaches. If anyone wants to hear it, here’s a link:

    http://www.jimmyscottshighandtight.com/node/439

  10. Danny Verna permalink
    January 20, 2009 11:27 am

    Steve Sullivan (internet baseball guru and strength training expert)

    It takes a big pair to criticize a future Hall of Fame pitcher on his own blog for his choice to train with one of the top strength coaches in the country. Eric Cressey and his staff are nationally regarded for their Elite Baseball Development Program, and their commitment to providing the finest strength training facility this area has to offer. Athletes of all ages have benefited tremendously from Eric’s education (Master’s Degree in Kinesiology with a concentration in Exercise Science through UCONN — #1 ranked kinesiology graduate program in the country) and experience (accomplished author, guest-speaker, strength coach, and competitive powerlifter.) The results speak for themselves:

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/05/04/training_for_on_field_rewards/
    http://www.boston.com/sports/schools/baseball/articles/2007/05/20/going_batty_at_l_s/
    http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/08/10/weston_high_pitcher_buffing_up_his_body_as_well_as_his_scores/
    http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/sports/local_sports/x2109421480/Brown-does-it-all-for-Post-234
    http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/sports/x1816438060/Summer-Baseball-Notebook-Woods-effort-a-perfect-spark

    I have trained beside many of these young athletes at Cressey Performance, and have grown stronger with them, doing all manner of “dangerous” exercises including squats, etc. Eric and staff are tireless in their efforts to promote flexibility in conjunction with dynamic mobility exercises for all athletes, particularly pitchers. Feel free to educate yourself: http://ericcressey.com/flexibility-deficits-in-pitchers
    When you’re feeling brave, Steve, you’re welcome to join us and test out your “science”. Eric Cressey has surely done more for the up and coming young baseball players of Boston than you have with your ignorant statements above. Looks like you are well on your way to a successful career training baseball pitchers. I’m sure Curt Schilling and John Smoltz can’t book sessions with you fast enough. Eric should probably refer his list of MLB professionals, Minor League prospects, and local high school standouts to you.
    So on behalf of the young ballplayers in Boston…..you’re a jackass.

    Danny Verna

  11. michelle permalink
    January 20, 2009 1:03 pm

    danny verna you are my hero!

  12. Steve Sullivan permalink
    January 20, 2009 2:35 pm

    Mr Verna:

    Because of the fine education I received in Boston from the good Sisiters of St Joseph and the fine Jesuits it is pretty easy to bury guys like you that want to get into a name calling contest. Then I am called the bully and usually get banned. Then, the children of Boston suffer. We don’t want to limit speech in defense of kids now do we.

    He must be young but a young S&C guy here in GA got on the internet touting his new fangled training stuff and actually used his own name. He even praised Mr Cressey. He said he worked for the Phillies at one point. He is a big believer in Olympic lifts. I am pretty sure he won’t be using his name again on the anytime soon. I gave him the simple challenge that I now give to you and Mr Cressey. That is…if the baseball is moving backwards when the glove foot lands then how are the legs part of the kinetic chain in the traditional baseball pitching motion? If history is any judge, you will revert to name calling because you have zero science to back you up once you realize what I am saying is true. Mr Cressey says the lower extremities are responsible for 50% of the velocity in pitchers. Let’s see the scientific documentation. Put up or shut up.

    Mr Verna, when do the growth plates in the tibial tuberosity close on these kids doing these squats? If the stride does not contribute to release velocity why do you have these children jeopardizing their knees? When do the 6 glowth plates in the pitching elbow close? Do you know? Does Mr Cressey? I saw a biography of Mr Schilling on TV. It said he did not get to pitch much in High school until his senior year. I attribute this to Curt’s HOF career more than anything else. Get Jon Papelbon on here and tell us when he took up pitching. Ask Mr Papelbon if the three pitchers from his high school state championship baseball team can lift their arms over their heads todsay. In case you can’t get Mr Papelbon on here let me answer for you. NO.

    My first post to Mr Schilling was thanking him for an extraordinary kindness to my nieces. He seems like a nice enough man to me, But I shout out at his bastardization of conservatism. How can a guy who obviously loves his children and I imagine will let them play baseball not make the trip to Zephyrhills FL and learn something form a former CYA winner who has a PhD in Kinesiology. I used to believe the nonsense you believe. When I first heard about Dr Mike Marshall I was at his place within 24 hours. Trust me, I don’t have Curt’s bank account. But I believe we leave no stone unturned when it comes to training our children. At that time I has pitching tapes from Dick Mills, Tom House, Jeff Hodges, and Dewey Robinson. Unlike you and, unfortunately, the Curt Schilling’s and John Smoltz’ of the world, I don’t fear knowledge. That is the trademark of a true conservative. Parents raise childen not baseball villages.

    The first role of a coach and parent is to do no harm. Pitching a baseball is not harmless fun. But I’m a true conservative. I place the blame where it belongs…the parents. I have no truck with the Hillary Clinton Baseball Village. I try not to let others tell me how to think. Hopefully, in a small way, I fulfill my obligation to be a man for others by posting here.

    To paraphrase our new president, it is time for childishness to end.

    1. Let us know the scientific basis for Mr Cressey’s statement that the lower extremeities account for 50% of release velocity.

    2. If the baseball is going backwards when the baseball lands, let us know what the stride contributes to release velocity.

    Since we are such patriots here, when we get our heads handed to us in the World Baseball Classic perhaps, instead of excuses, that will be the clarion call for action. Mr Cressey is not the solution. He is the problem. A very big problem.

    Steve Sullivan

    As a bonus to Mr Schilling and I hope to Mr Smoltz, ASMI (and Mr Cressey seems to allude to this) tells you that it is the internal rotation of the humerus that causes UCL tears. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is critical that you and John pronate the release of all pitches. This will lead to powerful internal rotation of the upper arm.

    A little history. A couple of years ago the Cardinals were so pissed off about all the baseball pitching injuries that the owners sent a young front office guy around to all the usual suspect pitching gurus. Thinking that he was actually supposed to find the guy with the right answers, he went back and told them Dr Mike Marshall was their guy. Instead they hired a guy from ASMI. We all know how that turned out. Ask Chris Carpenter Now they have turned to Brent Strom who is mentioned in the link Mr Schilling provided. Mr Strom is trying to install a bastardized version of Dr Mike Marshall’s pitching motion to the Cardinal’s young pitchers.

    My challenge to the parents in Boston is why not get the real thing. I suggest they start by looking at a man’s credentials.

    http://drmikemarshall.com/AcademicCredentials.html

    http://drmikemarshall.com/ProfessionalBaseballCredentials.html

    I don’t have the time nor do I want to spend the effort to refute so many of your errors. But touting Dr Marshall is a quick way to get people to tune you out. Dr Marshalls program is one of those programs slated to work with an incredibly unique subset of an incredibly unique subset. There’s a reason Mike Marshall, and ONLY Mike Marshall, did what he did, because like all things human, our bodies are so unique to ourselves that no two are alike. He was a genetic freak and a great pitcher.

  13. Steve Sullivan permalink
    January 20, 2009 10:50 pm

    Thank for your response Curt:

    To which I hope iconoclastic Bostonians say…Huh?

    Dr Mike Marshall spent the first 4 years of his professional baseball career as a shortstop who made it to the All Star level in AAA baseball. He only became a pitcher because he had a very bad back from a car hits train accident as a kid.

    He worked out EVERY day of his career with iron balls, wrist weights and baseballs. He scientifically analyzed why he was losing the extension and flexion range of motion in his pitching arm. While I suspect he was a better athlete than he lets on, at slightly under 5’9″ I would not consider him a genetic freak. Michael Phelps worked out EVERY day of his high school career. Do we pass off his accomplishments as being a genetic freak? This is why conservatives have lost their way. When they don’t care to find an answer they fall back on Jesus or by calling those who strive to be the best based on science….freaks. I suggest you read or reread The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand.

    I do realize you are very busy and do not have time to reply but if I were Danny Verna I’d want to impress the irrepresible Michelle with science based answers to my two questions. I look forward to his reply. If our S&C guy here is any indication it will be like waiting for Godot before we get an answer.

    Stay well,

    Steve Sullivan

  14. Mike R. permalink
    January 21, 2009 11:46 am

    First, Mr. Sullivan, you are a complete idiot. Can you please send us your qualifications, articles you have written, books you have published, etc?

    With regards to the comments above, I see that several qualified individuals have endorsed Mr. Cressey, including: Mr. Schilling, Dr. Morgan, Doug Gross, and Dave Page. I’m sure the list is endless.

    Your qualifications, Mr. Sullivan? An overzealous Little League Coach? A parent who took his son to Mike Marshall’s facility, hoping that his instruction would make his son a pro pitcher someday?

    I think we can gain knowledge from all sources, including aspects of what Mike Marshall is teaching, but don’t get on here and bash someone that you’ve never met, have never practiced the mountains of useful information that he’s teaching, or considered that perhaps someone out there knows as much if not more than what Mike Marshall teaches.

    I know its winter, and its cold outside, and your probably looking for ways to combat your cabin fever, but please do us all a favor and get back to your day job buddy. Your useless rhetoric is not appreciated.

    Oh, and regarding your comment about the fine education that you received in Boston from the good sisters and fine Jesuits, do you happen to remember the paramount objective of a Jesuit Education? Somehow you must have forgotten that objective, because you certainly have not demonstrated it, with your attacks on a fine professional.

  15. sidharth permalink
    January 21, 2009 4:31 pm

    Mr. Sullivan is a complete jerk who’s going to realize someday that hes so ignorant to not even be open enough to try out what Mr. Cressey (who’s undoubtedly one of the best strength coaches and shoulder rehab guy in the business) wants to put forth as a very logical workout regimen for pitchers and kinetic chain isn’t a jargon its very simple physics , part of our common sense and even an average athlete would understand what he means by that.the part where he says that 50% of the power comes from the lower trunk is 100% true…its damn physics its called root power the power that you derive from gravity theres no doubting that we all do that …the olympic lifts , cleans ,squats makes that part of our training so that when needed muscles can be recruited fast to do transfer the power towards the upper extremities, the hip delivers that power directly to the shoulders a bit of on the field experience would have helped you understand that….surely all the squats , cleans and other complex lifts make huge contributions to increasing the coordination and work capacity resulting in increased performance of ‘power’ athletes.well hope you quit being a jerk and start being a bit common sensical

  16. Steve Sullivan permalink
    January 21, 2009 9:31 pm

    Sid:

    I hope Curt is starting to see where the anti science crowd is bringing this country. As I predicted I’ve been called a jerk, a jackass, and an idiot. AlI for timerity of heling young athletes. I’m beginning to think that the only one that knows what I am saying is Curt.

    Sid, help me out my friend. Tell me how the legs contribute to release velocity when the ball is going backwards when the stride foot lands. You are right. It is simple physics. Every segment has to contribute to the forward velocity of the baseball to contribute to the kinetic chain. It’s just common sensical (sic).

    I’m still waiting for an answer to when the growth plates of the Tibial tuberosity close on these kids. You do know what happens if growth plates close before God intended them to.

    Curt can do squats from now to kingdom come and it won’t help him pitch a baseball. The concept is in every Physiology of Exercise textbook in the world. It’s called Specificity of Exercise. Do squats and you get better at doing squats. Nothing else.

    I think its time for Boston to get back to hitting the books. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

    Steve Sullivan

  17. Mike R. permalink
    January 22, 2009 12:21 am

    Stevie boy. Curt, Sidharth, Mr. Verna, Mr. Scott, and myself are still waiting for you to post your qualifications. Each time you write a new post without posting your qualifications, your damaging your credibility. Not that you had any credability to begin with. Please be sure to include the articles you have written (references please), books, seminars, websites for which you have written articles, DVD’s or educational series released, and those that know you throughout the industry. Little League coaching or watching Mike Marshall’s Free Video clips a thousand times do not count as credentials STEVIE. Also, please remember your paramount objective that you received with your Jesuit education. We wouldn’t want the good sister of St. Joseph and those that gave you that fine Jesuit education to be embar”ASS”ed by your useless rhetoric. Simply put Stevie Boy, PUT UP or SHUT THE HELL UP.

    Also, since your such a great admireror of Mike Marshall’s work, can you please tell the guy to upgrade his FREAKING UGLY WEBSITE. I’m telling you folks, take a look at this piece of garbage http://www.drmikemarshall.com. The funniest piece of information on his garbage website is at the bottom of the home page. The dude actually has the gall to ask for donations to help defray the cost of running the website. ARE YOU JOKING MIKE….have you really taken a look at this garbage? I’m not kidding folks…take a look:

    “To help defray the costs of operating my website, I greatly appreciate your donations. Thank you.”………..WELL AT LEAST Mike says “Thank You”. Don’t you just have to believe that STEVIE boy crept into his kids room, broke open his piggy bank, and sent Mike a few bucks to keep the website up and running….Poor Mike, those 10 high school kids he gets each year down in Zephyrhills, with DAD in tow, and the dream of making their high school team still dancing in their head, just couldn’t come up with enough moolah to cover the $10 a month hosting fee. Maybe we should all take up a collection for poor Mike.

  18. sidharth permalink
    January 22, 2009 1:22 am

    Ok Mr. Sullivan try these

    try to pitch while you’re sitting and do the same in your usual way …find the difference in the speeds and tell me from where does that difference arise.
    the part where you say the ball is going backwards (which i presume is the initial swing of the arm) is the point where the coiling up of the chain (compressing a spring equivalent to more potential energy being stored in the spring) occurs for the later burst which happens after the stride foot has landed, just like a whip , see how the hind foot and the hip drive contribute to the slingshot burst effect(thats how the spring decompresses and the rest of the kinetic uses it to generate the ‘forward’ velocity).the ball going backwards doesn’t cut out the ‘forward’ velocity …it is in fact the cause and adds to the ‘forward’ velocity
    Relying on the power of the big muscles in the legs, back and shoulder to generate the speed of the pitch allows the pitcher to use the fine control available in the fingers and the wrist to control the precise location and spin on the ball when it leaves the hand. every muscle from bottom up is part of that movement….how not you explain that to me.

  19. sidharth permalink
    January 22, 2009 2:58 pm

    yeah that site is crazy and that workout videos only one interested me although i was pretty impressed by the jargonic capabilities of dr mike doesnt matter whether it makes sense or not or whether am capable enough to hold my nerve to piece all the jigsaw he creates with the words.. i mean wtf u should check that piece out where he answers a question regarding one article by Cressey inefficiency vs pathology , u guys should read that and you ll know abt magnificent Doc Mike and his ‘methods’ … a segment of the answer has this —


    To specifically answer your question as to whether baseball pitchers can overcome ruptures of their Ulnar Collateral Ligament and Ulnar Nerve discomfort by improving the inward rotation range-of-motion of their pitching upper arm or ‘cleaning’ up soft tissue restrictions of the muscles that attach to the medial epicondyle:

    01. If they use my baseball pitching motion, to pitch competitively, baseball pitchers do not even need an Ulnar Collateral Ligament. However, I still recommend that they have one.

    02. Therefore, once they ruptured their Ulnar Collateral Ligament, I recommend that ‘traditional’ baseball pitchers have Ulnar Collateral Ligament replacement surgery.

    hahahhah damn !!!

  20. January 22, 2009 3:02 pm

    It’s almost like arguing that 2+2 = 4. Ha ha

  21. Steve Sullivan permalink
    January 22, 2009 9:57 pm

    Mike R.

    I gave my name. Curt gave his name. Afraid to give youe name? I’m sure Curt is getting the message loud and clear about your ilk. My credentials are not important. The important thing for you and the citizens of Boston to know is these credentials. What are your credentials?

    Mr Schilling has had a fabulous career. He does not understand Exercise Science, however. Mr Cressey may be a nice guy but he does not have a PhD in Kinesiology nor does he have a 20 year professional baseball career. Mr Cressey does not have over 40 years of research on how to properly apply force to a baseball under his belt. The more I read about Mr Cressey. the less I like. That does not mean he is a bad guy. It simply means he does not understand how to apply force to a baseball. You have no idea what these pitchers go through with all the goofy stuff they are taught. You have no idea what Mr Schilling faces as he gets older. Dr. Marshall has not been on WEEI in a while, why don’t we set up a debate with he and Dr Marshall and see who knows what.

    If you can put a coherent sentence together and dispute anything I say please do so. Otherwise Mr Schilling is going to get further embarrassed that I was so prescient in predicting the reaction a man of science would get for helping children. Mikie, the world is round. Get over it.

    I am sorry you do not like Dr Marshall’s web site. I prefer the content to the style. Curt’s generation of ball players seem to forget the contribution Dr Marshall and other union activists made to the fabulous salaries he has made. Dr Marshall was not around to garner the big money he so selflessly helped Curt make.

    Dr Marshall gives his video away for free. He has his book online for free. (I strongly urge Mr Cressey to read it) He answers all questions for free. He invites all visitors to his complex for free. It’s called giving back to the community. He chargee $10 a day for lessons. What does Mr Cressey charge for lessons?

    I donate to his web site. I would strongly suggest that Mr Schilling send Dr Marshall a donation. He owes him more than he knows.

    Steve Sullivan

  22. Steve Sullivan permalink
    January 22, 2009 11:12 pm

    Sid:

    If I may, first let me be clear on the debate I propose on WEEI. I want Dr Marshall to debate Mr Cressey not Mr Schilling. Propose that to Mr Cressey and see who runs for the tall grass. Once agin, I have no doubt Mr Cresset means well.

    Now to your posts. You obviously need a pair of legs to stand on. I said the stride does not contribute to release velocity. If the hand is going backwards when the glove foot lands it is not contributing to the forward release velocity. Period. Go ask Mr Cressey to reflect on this. To quote a poster…it is 2+2=4 stuff.

    Now how do we detrmine the contribution of the “stride. Go to this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?autoplay=1&v=ouQTS5_EcUc

    Throw the ball as a hard as you can like this guy. Gun him. Then throw as hard as you can with your pitching motion. You will throw about 90% of your release velocity without the stride. The other 10% comes from the forward movement of the center of mass of your body.

    Lets have you or Mr Cressey show the scientific source that tells us muscles store energy.

    You or someone you listen to has ben reading too much Paul Nyman. There is no “whip” in the traditional pitching motion. Perhaps by whip you mean the reverse pitching forearm bounce you get because you take the ball out of the glove with the hand on top of the ball. If you promise John Smoltz will read it I’ll go into the science but it is this reverse forearm bounce that sends many a pitcher off to Dr Andrews. Glen Fleisig tells you how to destroy your arm in Door A and Dr Andrews repairs it in Door B. What a country!

    “Watch the hind foot”???? You are kidding. Right? Please do watch the hind foot. Watch how pitchers drag the back foot off the mound because they stride too far. Do Olympic sprinters drag their feet out of the starting blocks. Do they point their back foot parallel to the starting blocks to get maximum force production with their legs? Watch how the back foot acts as an anchor to the forward moverment of the COM. CMON MAN as they say on ESPN.

    “The ball going “backward” does not cut out the “forward” velocity.” George Orwell wasn’t too far off when he wrote 1984. Go backwards to go forward. Orwell would be prousd. Sid, what you describe is a 100% presription for a kid (or adult) to blow out his UCL. Dr Andrews says it’s not a matter of if but when you go see him. Thanks to you and the Eric Cressey’s of the world he will never lack for business. Dr Marshall’s guys on the other hand never get hurt. AND AND AND they all increase their release velocity.

    Here’s how the kinetic chain should work. It starts with the Shoulder Girdle muscles. The contraction of the Shoulder Girdle muscles adds to the force supplied by the contraction of the Shoulder Joint muscles. The force of the Shoulder joint Muscles add to the force provided by the Elbow Joint muscles. The force provided by the Elbow Joint Muscle adds to the force provided by the wrist joint muscles. The wrist join muscles add to the force provided by the Finger Joint Muscles. This is how a kinetric chain has to work. There are 36 primary muscles that provide this true kinetic chain action. This is not a subset of a subset of some genetic freak. These muscles are in every single pitcher out there. This is called applied anatomy. Learn it.

    I would suggest readers take Mike R’s advise and go to Mike Marshalls’ website and find the 2009 Question file. Then do a find on Cressey and read Dr Marshall’s entire commentary on Mr Cressey. Please give it to Mr Cressey.

    If Curt is interested in how some of the other stuff Mr Cressey espouses is not helpful to him, let me know. It looks like Curt is looking for a place to pitch this season.. My advice is to hang in there. The pitching arm injuries will come fast and furious this year. Sabathia will be lucky to last until August. I give AJ Burnett a 50-50 chance of lasting the season. Enjoy Lincecum and Cole Hamels because they won’t be around long. Anyway, there will be plenty of chances for you to pitch this year. Good luck. Bring Tek down to Z-Hills with you and have Dr Marshall show him the proper way to swing a baseball bat. Have fun.

    Steve Sullivan

  23. sidharth permalink
    January 23, 2009 4:35 am

    @Mike R
    hey is this Mike Robertson from building an efficient athlete??

  24. January 23, 2009 10:19 am

    Steve,

    When you are all finished giving Dr. Marshall his daily backrub, reading this might be a good idea:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11019731?ordinalpos=40&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    Dr. Avery Faigenbaum is widely recognized as the premier authority worldwide in resistance training in children. This REVIEW from him was published in 2000 that outlines the safety and efficacy of appropriately programmed strength training in not only adolescents, but CHILDREN. With all reviews, you have to assume that it’s a compilation of a few previous years’ research. And, with all research, there is a considerable lagtime of approximately 1-2 years between data collection/statistical analysis and actual publication in a scholarly journal (plus dissemination to the lay population).

    So, it’s blatantly obvious that you are far from cutting-edge or even up-to-speed on your views on appropriate strength training protocols for children. And, in reality, by my math, you’re about a decade behind even the most mediocre of strength and conditioning researchers and guys who actually train athletes.

    Now, when the daughters to whom you allude in an earlier post leave for school with their 40-pound backpacks this morning, think about their growth plates. Oh, the children!

    And, when they go out to sprint this afternoon with their friends, remember that they’re throwing about four times body weight ground reaction force on a single leg with each stride they take. Of course, strength training couldn’t possibly help prevent injuries from that.

    That’s exactly what a lot of parents of the 75,000 kids who rupture their ACLs each year think. It’s funny how strength training is an important component of their rehabilitation programs. Why would someone ruin a growth plate to rehab an ACL? Hmm…

    Also, you might want to read a bit more of my stuff to find that I haven’t done Olympic lifts or back squats with any baseball players in my career.

    If you’d like, I’d be happy to address some of your pitching questions next. I would, however, caution you that while I double majored in exercise science and sports/fitness management, my minor was in internet arguing. I just wish I had more time to make use of that 1/3 of my education.

    Have a great day.

    Eric

  25. sidharth permalink
    January 23, 2009 1:30 pm

    @eric u rock !

    @steve step off

  26. sidharth permalink
    January 23, 2009 2:24 pm

    “Lets have you or Mr Cressey show the scientific source that tells us muscles store energy.”
    hey steve r u serious?? u want a scientific source to tell you that muscles store energy.

    the basis of kinetic energy and hence the kinetic chain is gravity (i know ur going to tell me that its not) so how can you not understand that there is a relationship between the lower trunk action and the upper extremities ?? how can you coerce the kinetic chain to start from the ‘shoulder girdle muscles’ ??
    and then in that case it wouldn’t matter (in terms of speed /power)if we sat on the ground and pitched as opposed to the usual way of pitching it on two feet?? u never answered that part…if the lower trunk has no part to play then you might as well sit on a sofa and pitch…that would be so efficient and athletic.

  27. Chris Nelson permalink
    January 23, 2009 4:00 pm

    Steve,
    Great posts preaching Dr. Marshall’s work. No doubt you strongly believe in his style. I just want to respond to this one part of your previous post when you said:

    “Dr Marshall gives his video away for free. He has his book online for free. (I strongly urge Mr Cressey to read it) He answers all questions for free. He invites all visitors to his complex for free. It’s called giving back to the community. He chargee $10 a day for lessons. What does Mr Cressey charge for lessons?”

    Supply and demand, my friend. Can’t charge money for something nobody wants!

  28. Dan Sullivan permalink
    January 23, 2009 6:27 pm

    All

    As my brother states, Dr Marshall has dedicated his life to the study of applying force to a baseball. He gives this information away for free. He continues to refine his knowledge and his motion. If you think you know more than Dr Marshall tell him where he is wrong. He is available 365 days a year. He is a man of science.

    When I first became aware of Dr Marshall, he said things like muscles don’t stretch and stetching reduces performance. That was crazy to me. All my life SC coaches had espoused the virtues of stretching. It is pretty clear now that Dr Marshall was right. As he usally is.

    To Mr Cressey

    Dr Marshall does not believe that children should not perform resistance training. Much to the contrary. My son will start his second 60 day skill aquisition program in two weeks. My son is 9. I live in Shrewsbury. I will gladly bring him to your facility and you can critique his workout. He will use 2.5lb wrist weights, 2lb weighted ball, and 10 lb buckets. So, Dr Marshall does not shy away from resistance training he encourages it. He also teaches the proper application of force.

    Some well meaning coaches damged my arm as a youth. It always amazed me that I could throw a football 60 yds and it killed my arm to throw a baseball. What is the difference from throwing a football and a baseball? The pronated release. That is what made me give up the traditional pitching motion. My son should not have to suffer that same pain. I don’t teach my son Marshall’s methods so he can become a Pro. I do it because it will protect his arm.

  29. Steve Sullivan permalink
    January 24, 2009 7:16 pm

    Sid:

    I am serious about you citing a source that states that muscles store energy. More nonsense from the baseball village. Since Mr Cressey, like the trainer here in Georgia, can’t answer my question about the stride contributing to release velocity in the traditional baseball motion, let me throw out a new challenge to our internet debating expert, Mr Cressey.

    Since, like Mikey R (whoever he is), you appropriately don’t want to give your name, assuming the baseball village has not told Mr Cressey to stop jeopardizing the traditional baseball village gravy train, I challenge him to come on here and tell us that muscles store energy. Just to be transparent to Mr Cressey, if he says something that foolish I will take his comments to the “teachers” at UConn and see if that school knows what the hell they are talking about.

    Curt, you look like you might have a son the same age as my nephew. I recommend you take Dan up on his offer to let you look at his training program. I trust you can bypass Mr Cressey and simply go to Dan’s house, Your buddy Mr Cressey made a huge baseball vilage mistake by actually offering to answer questions on baseball pitching. I plan on taking him apart article by goofy article. Your conservative ideal of freedom of discussion is going to be severely tested as you watch your friend get taken apart. If you are educable, you will learn much. It should be fun.

    Steve Sullivan

  30. Mike Reardon permalink
    January 25, 2009 10:41 am

    Stevie boy. I gave my name. Are you happy? Credentials? I’m not the one on this board preaching these mad scientist techniques. But, since you were too embarrased to post your credentials, I thought I would post them for you.

    Friends, it seems Stevie boy has been at this before. He’s a very frequent visitor to internet discussion boards. He’s been banned from many discussions boards and websites as well. Go figure. He and his brother Danny flew down to Florida and attended Marshall’s 2 day Pitching Instructor Certification seminar.
    Yes, that’s right my friends. Stevie and his brother Danny are pitching instructors. Not just any pitching instructors. They are Mike Marshall 2 Day Certified Pitching Instructors. Don’t believe me? Check it out for yourself at
    http://www.drmikemarshall.com/CertifiedMarshallBaseballPitchingCoaches.html
    They are 2 of only 13 certifed mike marshall pitching instructors in the universe. Amazing!!!!

    Stevie sets up shop in the Atlanta area while Danny teaches Marshall’s voodoo pitching methods in the Boston area.

    Well, I guess we really do not need to spend anymore of our precious time arguing with the Beavis & Butt-head (a.k.a. Stevie and Danny) of baseball pitching instructors. It all makes too much sense now.

    It was fun while it lasted. I don’t want to speak for Stevie or Danny, but I’m sure they wouldn’t mind if anyone contacted them to continue this foolish debate. You can find their contact information at the link posted above.

  31. sidharth permalink
    January 25, 2009 2:04 pm

    beavis & butt head hahaha
    yeah these guys are at best comic reliefs !!…thnx Stevie we r sure ull be back with more firepower!! keep working at it…one day you might just prove that the earth is flat..!!

  32. Dan Sullivan permalink
    January 25, 2009 3:38 pm

    Yes, I am a Marshall certified instructor. However, I am only interested in teaching my son. It may confound you, but it was important enough for me to protect my son’s health to get educated on proper force application and training. The destructive evidence of the traditional pitching motion is all around us. You can either chose to ignore it and suffer the pain or educate yourself. I choose the latter for my son.

  33. Steve Sullivan permalink
    January 25, 2009 11:46 pm

    Mr Cressey:

    I am taking you up on your generous offer to answer some pitching questions.

    To get the peanut gallery out of the way…do Sidharth and Reardon represent your views? Reardon has not said anything intelligible so I assume you have to agree with me that he is simply a buffoon. Sid is coming across new information and it is a natural reaction to protest. I will say he will muddy the waters a bit but he does seem to want to learn. Unless youy say they speak for you, I will ignore them unless they come up with something factual that pertains to pitching a baseball.

    Let’s review the questions on the table:

    1. Where is your source for saying 50% of a pitchers power comes from the lower extremities?

    2. In case that statement was a guess, now that you see that the stride foot has landed in the traditional baseball pitching motion and the baseball is still moving backwards do you still believe the stride adds ro release velocity?

    3. Do you actually believe the baseball is still going backwards in the traditional pitching motion when the glove foot lands?

    4. What is your kinetic chain for baseball pitching?

    5. Do you actually believe that muscles store energy? If so, do you have a source for this?

    I think that covers what has been already discussed.

    I’ll start with an easy new one. Why is it that all you traditionalists blame God for all these pitching injuries. The statement of traditionalists goes something like this….”the human arm is not contructed for overhead throwing” or words to that effect. As a matter of fact in this post:

    http://ericcressey.com/newsletter108html

    You write: “And, to be more blunt, there is absolutely nothing even remotely healthy about throwing a baseball. ”

    6. Do you think God did a poor job contructing the pitching arm for overhand pitching? Or is blaming God just another of the many copouts we have to listen to today?

    Thanks much. I am sure we will all learn much from the discussion.

    Steve Sullivan

    And, to be more blunt, there is absolutely nothing even remotely healthy about throwing a baseball.

  34. Steve Sullivan permalink
    January 25, 2009 11:52 pm

    Eric:

    I did not intend to place the sentence after I signed my name into the thread. I assume there is no way to edit a post after it has been submitted. I’ll have to be more careful in the future.

    Steve Sullivan

  35. sidharth permalink
    January 27, 2009 11:26 am

    i don’t represent Eric…
    He doesn’t need any!! we are not discussing people here…
    so don’t beat around and answer my query which you very subtly sidelined…

    read the following and tell me more —
    “”the basis of kinetic energy and hence the kinetic chain is gravity (i know ur going to tell me that its not) so how can you not understand that there is a relationship between the lower trunk action and the upper extremities ?? how can you coerce the kinetic chain to start from the ’shoulder girdle muscles’ ??
    and then in that case it wouldn’t matter (in terms of speed /power)if we sat on the ground and pitched as opposed to the usual way of pitching it on two feet?? u never answered that part????????…if the lower trunk has no part to play then you might as well sit on a sofa and pitch…that would be so efficient and athletic.”” blah blah blah

  36. Steev Sullivan permalink
    January 27, 2009 5:41 pm

    Sid:

    Hey what happened to the guy who majored in internet debating? Let me guess, he’s “too busy”,

    If you read my posts you would see that I said the STRIDE does not contribute to release velocity in the traditional pitching motion. I don’t want these high school and college age kids doing these Squats, Cleans, etc with the fruitless hope that it will help them throw faster. For me, it is this emphasis on strength over skill that leads kids down the road to performance enhancing drugs.

    I will grant you that I have no idea what you are talking about when you say gravity is your basis for the baseball pitching kinetic chain. Who is telling you this? As I understand the kinetic chain in the traditional baseball pitching motion goes from the legs and works its way upwardly through the “core” etc. But I don’t particularly care what you think because I don’t know your credentials and I have no idea whose pitching/training program you endorse. So why don’t we agree to disagree and wait for the courageous Mr Cressey to be unbusy and see if he can answer my simple questions.

    I have plenty more. I particularly want to know if he thinks he can undo the loss of flexion and extension range of motion in the pitching elbow. You can hang from the Tobin bridge and that isn’t going to undo the damage. Does he even know what causes the loss of extension and flexion range of motion in the pitching elbow?

    Steve Sullivan

  37. January 28, 2009 11:36 am

    Steve,

    Will gladly answer all your questions as time allows. As the folks above noted, though, it’s pretty clear that you’re an internet troll, and I know how you work.

    You’re one of 13 guys who took a course to get a certification that not many people have. Regardless of how legit it may or may not be, it’s exclusive – and that makes you look good.

    Unfortunately for you, the only place you’re recognized for your distinguished 14 or so hours of study is on a website with an Alexa ranking of 2.89 million. Lower is better. Yahoo is #1, Google is #2, MSN is #3, and so on and so forth. You get the idea.

    Curt’s blog is 49,881 – pretty darn good. Mine is 159,498 – also pretty darn good. One of my minor league guys started a blog on October 29, and he’s only got a whopping 2,756 hits over the course of three months – or ~900 hits a month. His Alexa ranking is 2.50 million. In other words, he’s 400,000 site MORE popular than where your accomplishments are displayed – and that clearly bothers you.

    And, to take it a step further, you can taunt guys like Curt and I all you want, but the truth is that we have stuff to do, and each time we waste time bickering with internet warriors like you, it:

    a) is like giving our money away
    b) is like saying you’re more important than our loved ones
    c) gives you EXACTLY what you want: attention

    “C” was readily apparent when you came out studying for the wrong test trying to turn what was a strength and conditioning oriented discussion into a debate of pitching mechanics. The truth is that while I’m more prepared in this regard than you might think, my job isn’t to change a guy’s mechanics; it’s to make him as structurally sound, efficient, and healthy as possible with what I’m given.

    Just over 20 pro ballplayers – Curt included – are in my “care” this off-season, and if I’m a carpenter who only has a hammer, I’m treating them all like nails and doing them a great disservice. With your discussions thus far on pitching mechanics and what you “think” I’m doing on the strength and conditioning side of things, you’re clearly getting that hammer ready to do some pigeonholing. If you think it is as simple as “cleans, squats, etc,” then you are sorely mistaken and very misinformed.

    So, all that said, I’ll specifically address all your questions in my blog as time allows, but you can be sure that I won’t give you exactly what you want by getting into a shouting match with you here. And, I certainly won’t allow you to inconvenience me in any way or take away my attention or abilities from my loved ones and athletes who deserve, respect, and appreciate it.

  38. Steve Sullivan permalink
    January 30, 2009 12:00 am

    Mr Cressey:

    I was in Florida last spring at a baseball tournament and spent some time with some Army paratroopers based in Afghanistan(and Colorado Springs). One of the guys told me his son was an accomplished high schhol pitcher. I told him that his son was hurting his arm on every pitch and he should check out drmikemarshall.com. He thanked me and immediately called his son. He didn’t tell me his son would follow what Dr Marshall had to say. He simply was a father that was doing the best he could for his son. This was the type of guy I am sure Mr Schilling met in Iraq. If this guy was making a 7 figure contract I have no doubt he would have been parachuting into Vinson Ave in Zephyrhills Fl the next day.

    So now what does Mr Schilling do with the feckless Mr Cressey? Instead of answering, as promised. what should be some simple questions that can advance everyone’s knowledge, we get the typical baseball village diatribe. You write above that ” I would, however, caution you that while I double majored in exercise science and sports/fitness management, my minor was in internet arguing? That sounds like the classic definition of a troll to me. You say that I am looking for attention. I did not give any credentials. I did not say I was a Certified Dr Mike Marshall Pitching Instructor. You’re probabaly “too busy” to do any research but I challenge you to find another web site where you will find my name. I am, however, trying to advance, the views of Dr Mike Marshall. I am, however, trying to show Mr Schilling the depths to which the conservative movement has sunk in America (where have you gone Freidrich Hayek). You may be a nice guy but you do not know what you are doing.

    As all S&C coaches do, you expose the huge problem with baseball pitching training today. Mr Cressey says

    ““C” was readily apparent when you came out studying for the wrong test trying to turn what was a strength and conditioning oriented discussion into a debate of pitching mechanics. The truth is that while I’m more prepared in this regard than you might think, my job isn’t to change a guy’s mechanics; it’s to make him as structurally sound, efficient, and healthy as possible with what I’m given. ”

    How can you specifically train the proper muscles if you don’t know how pitcers are supposed to pitch. This is a huge huge problem. Look at the picture your minor league pitcher places on his web site. It’s almost like stealing taking money from him when he pitches like that. But hey, it’s all about the cash and the Alexa rating. Why do you think Tom House went before a baseball convention and apologized for all the Arms he ruined (and Randy Johnson’s knee)? Why do you think Dick Mills changed his whole pitching program? Do you think he figured out that long toss was a joke on his own? Why do you think Paul Nyman says it’s not about the legs? Alexa ratings indeed. I told a coach in Georgia who was touting you to add your name to the baseball phenoms du jour list on an Excel spreadsheet (with Sabathia, Lincecum, etc) and go back and check the names in a couple of years.

    I don’t mind the name calling as long as you advance the discussion. Three of my five questions called for a yes or no answer. How much time does it take to answer yes or no. So let’s agree that I don’t think you know what you are doing and you think you are dealing with a guy with 14 hours of training. Let’s keep it to the facts from here on out. Then we will let Mr Schilling decide if he wants to tout you to the kids in Boston.

    Now if you are keeping stuff you are doing from your readers I obviously can’t comment on that. I am only commenting on all the nonsense you write on your blog. I would love to know the workout Curt is doing.

    Keep fighting,

    Steve Sullivan

  39. May 8, 2015 7:27 am

    I don’t have an axe to grind here nor do I have a dog in this fight. I’m a father who’s coached his sons and tried to give them the best information available.
    My sons are 34 and 17 and I’ve revised my instructions many times over the years. I’m not afraid to say oops I was wrong, what I taught you last year wasn’t right, here’s what we’re doing now. I believe most people refuse to admit when they’re wrong and that’s why we keep doing the same things and yet expect a different result. How many Tommy John surgeries this year?
    In defense of Dr. Mike Marshall, he’s the only source I’ve found for identifying what causes pitching arm injuries and he gives his solution.
    Paul B.

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38 Pitches

Curt Schilling's Official Blog

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