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Santana?

December 3, 2007

A rotation featuring Beckett, Santana as the top two is pretty much as good as it can get. The thought of pitching behind these guys has to fire ya up. That being said I look at it like this.

If we make the move we’ll have done so with Theo knowing whatever he had to trade to acquire him he can restock those spots either from within, or via trade. How much is too much when you’re talking about trading for the best left handed pitcher in the game? How much is too much when you consider what he and Josh could do over the next 5-6 years.

Whatever is too much I am more than confident that we won’t get there. Based on the offers I know are out there I can’t see anyone out bidding us talent wise. The second part of this deal is the one that really narrows this down to a few suitors at most. Whatever contract Johan negotiates God Bless Him. If you were going to set a record for a contract with a starting pitcher this guy and about 3-4 others in the game would be the best bets.

I don’t see any of the other players holding this deal up from either NY or Boston. Neither team will let him slip through their hands because they want to hold onto a AA or AAA potential star. I think it’s going to come down to the value Minnesota places in Philip Hughes/Melky Cabrera vs the top 2-3 players in this deal from our side.

The good thing here is that as of today, at some point, NY bows out if the Twins don’t accept their offer. If that happens, which I don’t think it will, I think Minnesota will weigh the two offers and make a decision on one today, unless of course there is a dark horse involved like Anaheim, the Mets or Dodgers.

Winter around here seems to be a lot more fun these past few years and I think it may get a lot more interesting before the nights over.

152 Comments leave one →
  1. December 3, 2007 3:32 pm

    The prospect of losing some of our great young players to get a great pitcher … it’s enough to distract me from tonight’s Pats game!

  2. jumarqui permalink
    December 3, 2007 3:38 pm

    Hey Curt,

    No feedback on the Santana signing, just that I hate to see Ellsbury go. But that’s more sentimental than logical. My real comment is on your professionalism and the tone of your reporting about someone essentially displacing you as the #2 pitcher on this team. I speak for many Sox fans when I say that we’re happy to have you on the team and your attitude toward this potential trade just illustrates what kind of team-first winner you are.

    Congrats on yet another World Series title. And thanks from a big fan.

    Justin

  3. December 3, 2007 3:41 pm

    Last year we followed the Matsuzaka negotiations now we follow the Santana sweepstakes.

    Nothing more fun than Red Sox talk in the winter.

  4. jonstaples permalink
    December 3, 2007 3:56 pm

    Beckett and Santana as the top two would be so nasty! I would hate to see Jacoby go though, we just love him here in the Great Northwest.

  5. thekayotic1 permalink
    December 3, 2007 3:58 pm

    You’re are absolutely correct. Both NY and Boston are the major players here. They have the talent and the money to satisfy the Twins for Santana. I do, however, think that they are asking for too much talent for one pitcher. Boston having to put Ellsbury on the deal is a little much. Minnesota is holding the cards though. Ultimately, it’s their decision on who’s offering the better deal. Regardless of if it’s the Sox or the Yanks, whoever gets Santana may be getting more trouble than their barganing for.

  6. rsoxgal07 permalink
    December 3, 2007 3:59 pm

    It would be pretty awsome to have Santana….The Sox would then be able to really dominate. ;) Not that you all aren’t dominating already :) But I do hope that we don’t get rid of Jacoby….Even though it is business I thought it was really cool how he handled the playoffs and the World Series. Definately getting interesting this winter! I do agree with ya Curt: he would look good in a Red Sox uniform!

  7. December 3, 2007 4:07 pm

    I have been a redsox fan for 60yrs, and Ellesberry is the most exciting player I have seen ever on this team,if they trade him I think It will be the biggest mistake they have made since they traded “babe Ruth”. I hope if he is traded that he becomes a super star and comes back and beats them every time they meet!!!. I will be routing for the team he is on “against” the redsox. Maybe we can start another hex on the sox for about 82yrs.

    mickmck707.

    Boston

  8. ted5 permalink
    December 3, 2007 4:10 pm

    A dream rotation but not if Ellsbury is included. The kid is on his way to being a superstar! My guess is Santana-Claus will wind up with the dreaded Yankees. They are still weak in solid, dependable pitching and after Boston’s dealings last season for the two boys from Japan, I don’t think NY will let the Sox get away with another super-deal. If I’m wrong, then perhaps I can land a job as a sports writer or broadcaster!
    Over a foot of new snow up here in Maine. Where are the tourists when we need all the snow shovelers we can get?

    Ted

  9. syphax permalink
    December 3, 2007 4:13 pm

    This is a tough one for me.

    Emotionally (bad way to think about it), I love all our young guys. I’d hate to lose any of them.

    However, Johan is a total stud. He could be Pedro II (sorry Curt, he’s too young to be Curt II).

    However, the risks are high. Johan could be Pedro II for either BOS or NYY. Or he could be Kevin Brown II or Pavono II or Zito II etc. (you get the idea- enormous $/win for an injured/broken pitcher). Lester, Clay, Jacoby all have great potential, but we don’t really know how they will pan out. But they’re cheap for the near future.

    Frankly, I think the best outcome would be for the Dodgers or someone far away and not very good in the NL to get him. Of course, the worst case is that NYY gets him (unless his arm proceeds to fall off, in which case it’s a near best case). I can’t complain at all if we get him, but it does tie up a lot of money, so he better be good for several years.

    But in Theo I trust (bad moves in the past notwithstanding).

  10. mmapes permalink
    December 3, 2007 4:14 pm

    The question is do you give up Ellsbury and Lester for one pitcher. No matter how good he is do you give up a Ellsbury who will play for you for the next 10 years and Lester who could very well blossom into a strong #3 or 2 guy for the best Left Hander for the say the next 3 or 4 years. To me the talent required to obtain him plus the cost to hire him put a burden on the organization down the road. Look how A Rod’s deal crippled Texas (not that we are Texas) but a salary like that is often times unjusifiable.

    Just my thoughts

  11. December 3, 2007 4:18 pm

    Hmmm. Since I’m on the outside looking in, I can’t say that I have the same confidence on feeling that the center field replacement will be comprable should the deal including a certain younger player actually come to fruition.

    But, I don’t play for the management…nor do I know the management. I just play “armchair management”. :)

    Funny, he was my only “hell no” player. So very interesting to see how the rest of today plays out… :)

  12. drconlaw permalink
    December 3, 2007 4:18 pm

    Curt: In the comment on the Santana rumors, you have partially answered a question that we were asking around the table yesterday. Do baseball players read all these reports all winter and wonder whether they will be playing in (fill in the blank) as opposed to Boston next spring. It would drive me crazy if, all winter long, I was reading that my employer might be shipping me and my family to parts unknown. So my answer in the family discussion yesterday was that players probably don’t read any of these accounts. But clearly you do. If you were doing so, and were in the early part of your career and were being mentioned as a possible part of a future trade, how would that affect you and your outlook toward the Red Sox if you weren’t traded? Is this just “part of the business of baseball” that is accepted by all? Thanks.

  13. December 3, 2007 4:20 pm

    As much as I would LOVE to have Santana, I’m not too excited about giving up Ellsbury. He was HUGE late in the season and even more so in the post-season.

    I know Santana is a proven player, but I’m just wondering if it is worth sacrificing the potential in Ellsbury when our starting line-up is already, arguably, the best in baseball.

    The only thing that has been getting me to sleep at night is knowing that Theo has already put together two WS championship teams in the past 3 years, so I have to believe that he knows what he’s doing. It’s great having your insight on these issues. I’m so glad you’re going to be back in a Sox uniform!

  14. depsean permalink
    December 3, 2007 4:21 pm

    Adding Johan would make The Boston Red Sox’s rotation, possibly the best in the history of baseball. But with a guy like Jacoby on the line, who has talent that’s made a lot of our jaws drop and not to mention how he did seem to fire everybody up in the ALCS, it’s hard to imagine seeing him off so quickly. He turned into a fan favorite immediately, he also got America some free tacos! Whatever happens, Theo knows what he’s doing, he hasn’t failed us yet.

  15. December 3, 2007 4:23 pm

    “Winter around here seems to be a lot funner these past few years and I think it may get a lot more interesting before the nights over.”

    Yeah – that’s primarily because ownership / management (and I count the coaches in this group) have done such a spectacular job developing talented kids in the minors. We saw the dividends paid this season, big-time: Pedroia playing an excellent 2b, Ellsbury getting the call and performing like an All Star (in an admittedly small sample), Lester winning the clinching game 4 of the Series, Buchholz tossing a no-hitter at the O’s.

    Real fans of a team, I think, enjoy nothing more than seeing some kid come up through their system and then excel on the big stage. Very few free agents can replicate the affection we attach to these kids, unless they’re integral to an extraordinary circumstance (the ’04 Series win, for example). Conversely, it becomes very difficult to see these kids traded away after getting just a hint of how successful they can be.

    Remember, this is a fanbase still whipping a defunct ownership over the Jeff Bagwell trade.

    Even if Santana’s perfectly healthy, where’s he going to slot into the rotation? You can’t slot him # 1 with Beckett on the roster – that would be a slap in the face to him. But isn’t slotting Santana # 2 a slap in the face to Santana? We all know there’s a lot – a lot – of ego in professional athletics. There has to be in order for people to reach the level of expertise you reach.

    Then, how do you justify the Beckett contract against the ridiculous dollars Santana will command? It could well be that you can’t simply look at the $120 – $150mm that Santana will command, but at the requisite price jump for Beckett’s services in order to keep him content. See my eariler comment on ego in pro athletes.

    Then, if Lester is still in the wings, you’ve got Lester, Buchholz and Wakefield all battling for the final rotation spot. Do you stick Tim in the pen, a place he seemingly hasn’t enjoyed being relegated to? If not, are you going to take two young guys who have higher ceilings and keep them out of your rotation in order to spare Tim’s feelings?

    How are you going to feel having to make a press release if Santana ends up missing 18 months with TJ surgery? That’s a hell of a lot more palatable for a kid making $400k a season than a guy you gave up kids for and are on the hook for $50mm at two seasons of lost performance.

    We’ve watched teams get burned over and over and over by exhorbitant FA signings. The bad contracts probably outweigh the good ones by a margin of 4-1, if not more. I just think it’s ill advised to sign huge contracts when the in-house talent dictates that you don’t need to.

    I’ve never heard anything but priase for Santana from any writher out there – his dedication to his team and his city, his professional ethics. His results have spoken for themselves.

    And I still don’t want to see the Sox sign him.

  16. 2006vadercat2006 permalink
    December 3, 2007 4:36 pm

    Check your spelling, funner isn’t a word.

  17. pennstater89 permalink
    December 3, 2007 4:37 pm

    And I thought all my nail-biting days were over until April !!

    Curt, have fun on Wednesday w/ McCain. I was never into politics until 9/11. Now I do care who the leader of the free world is. But I must say that anyone who truly wants to be President needs their head examined first, especially in this day and age.

    Whether the Sox get Santana or not, I trust Theo and staff to put together another great squad in 2008. I do think it’s great, though, to read the Sox may be playing head games with the Yankees. GO SOX!

    Amy

  18. paddycake permalink
    December 3, 2007 4:43 pm

    How do you feel about Theo offering jacoby ellsbury as part of this trade? As much as I like Jon Lester I could see him going. But in my opinion I feel ellsbury is a future star and will be great in Boston. What are your thoughts?

  19. ignoreant1 permalink
    December 3, 2007 4:44 pm

    If the old axiom “you can never have enough pitching” is ever going to be tested, next year would be it if we end up with Santana!

  20. mrpags permalink
    December 3, 2007 5:03 pm

    I can’t argue that fact that Santana just might be the best left handed pitcher in the game right now. I’m not sure I would be willing to throw Jacoby in the mix to get him though. The mere thought of listening to Bob Lobel saying, “Why can’t we get players like that” would kill me! I sincerely hope that somehow we can indeed get Santana without having to part with Jacoby.

  21. 04sox07 permalink
    December 3, 2007 5:09 pm

    I think we have the best pitching in baseball, and we shouldn’t change a thing.

    Beckett is the next great pitcher, who’s name will someday be ranked among the best ever. You, Curt, are already there!

    Then there’s Dice-K, who I think will have an incredible season, and the heroic Lester and no-hit Clay… It doesn’t get much better!

    Plus we got veteran Wake in there, who we know can deal with anything!

    I think that Jacoby Ellsbury will follow Jim Rice, Nomar, Manny and Big Papi as the next “face” of the Red Sox. He’s going to be one of the best. No pitcher in the world is worth Jacoby. Besides, we already have the best.

    -Chuck

  22. teddy3321 permalink
    December 3, 2007 5:10 pm

    If Yanks get Santana. Santana, wang,andy p is pretty good

  23. jimib15 permalink
    December 3, 2007 5:15 pm

    Curt,

    Heard you were in the Big Easy after the fact, sorry I missed the opportunity to hear you speak. One of my fellow Red Sox Nation members said he saw you at lakeside mall, but didn’t want to intrude.

    Regarding the Santana Deal. I’m not against trying to get Santana into our already incredible rotation. However, I’m not so sure that it’s worth losing Jacoby Ellsbury over. Would it be nice to get him? Sure! Do we absolutely need him? No, not really.

    Congrats on another fantastic Season!
    Keep up the great work.

    Jim Berube

  24. top1tony permalink
    December 3, 2007 5:19 pm

    Even though I’d miss Jacoby, I feel if we have the chance we need to do it. Knowing we could dominate for the next five to six years is too good to pass up.

  25. bing0011 permalink
    December 3, 2007 5:28 pm

    Ellsbury is too much! The Red Sox shouldn’t invest their future in a pitcher we don’t NEED. We’ve already got you, Beckett, Dice-K, Lester (unless he stays in the trade), Wakefield and Buchholtz — that’s a 6-man rotation as-is! If we’re going to give up Lester & Crisp, fine — but no, just no, to Ellsbury & Buchholtz.

    Please let Theo know what we fans think!

  26. theflash192 permalink
    December 3, 2007 5:34 pm

    Curt,

    While having John would be great, I really hope Theo doesn’t trade Jacoby Ellsbury. Jacoby not only has the tools to make an impact 162 games a season, but provides that top-of-the-lineup spark that ignites an offense.

    Thanks for keeping this blog. I enjoy getting your insight.

  27. two2coins permalink
    December 3, 2007 5:45 pm

    Curt-

    Is it really worth it to get Santana if we have to give up Jacoby Ellsbury as well as Jed Lowrie and another prospect? I am completely against giving up Jakobe, i’m not sure you realize how much love RSN has accumulated for the kid. I saw him as the new centerfielder once we trade Coco.

    I just dont think 150 million dollars is worth giving to a pitcher, seeing as how their health seems to fluctuate drastically. lets keep our prospects and let santana go have 2 good seasons then take up 25 million dollars of payroll for the yankees for the next 4 years as he gets injured and never quite recovers.

  28. cfohlin permalink
    December 3, 2007 5:53 pm

    “Winter around here seems to be a lot FUNNER these past few years and I think it may get a lot more interesting before the nights over.”

    “More fun” Curt, more fun! :-) Great piece.

  29. pedroia4president permalink
    December 3, 2007 5:57 pm

    Well said Curt, man you can make the crazy world of business in baseball comprehenable to the avergage person. Thanks, otherwise I would have no idea.

  30. davidmurrayjr permalink
    December 3, 2007 6:03 pm

    Curt,

    I see the beauty of having a southpaw like Santana. But I just worry that we could be loosing another future hall of famer in Jacoby. I really think that he was the spark that got the offense going in September, just when it was needed. I am not a sage when it comes to the front office. But my gut is feeling a little knotted at the thought of loosing such a fine player

    David

  31. ken1025 permalink
    December 3, 2007 6:06 pm

    I think giving up Jacoby Ellsbury might be too much. He is an exciting young player and I would hate to see him leave Boston and bring that excitement to another club. I would love to see the Red Sox land Santana, but I would hate to see the Red Sox trade away prospects

  32. calvinballer permalink
    December 3, 2007 6:07 pm

    Hi Curt,

    I agree 100% that holding prospects that MAY prove to be great ballplayers down the line is not an option here. I agree with the Sports Guy when he said if you can give up a few players who are not even in your top 15 from last year and get back Johan, it’s a no brainer.

    I wish the Sox luck in this!

  33. December 3, 2007 6:10 pm

    I am so glad that I don’t have to make the decision that Theo and the baseball operations crew have to make here. Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz…what a tremendous group of talented young players, the likes of which we have not seen since Lynn, Rice, Fisk, Burleson et. al. Ellsbury in particular could be the “leader of the band” for years. My gut says don’t do it. But Johann is one of the best…or he has been. Trading any of those three will tear my guts apart. But when I look at the pitching staff the team would have for several years I don’t think anyone in baseball can match it. Whatever the team decides I pray it is the right decision.

    Thanks for your perspective Curt.

  34. papuz permalink
    December 3, 2007 6:14 pm

    Heya Curt!

    I’m sure it Santana would be a welcome addition to the team if Boston does land him via trade. Will miss seeing ellsbury in a red sox uniform if ever he gets included in the deal but then Epstein has proven over the years that he does know what is best!

    I’m just as thrilled as everyone to see have Santana in the rotation!

    - your big fan in Manila

  35. Myke permalink
    December 3, 2007 6:14 pm

    What would bringing in Santana do to Josh’s ego/psyche? I think we can all agree that he pretty clearly established himself as the ace of the staff last year (with all due respect to you, Curt) – but with his resume Santana surely could lay claim to that role himself. So I guess the question is: would either of these guys insist on being the staff ace?

  36. December 3, 2007 6:22 pm

    “funner”? You can be such a kid at times and it’s good to see that show through. Have a happy holiday and as always, I enjoy reading your news, I can’t think of anything “funner”

    Chris
    Plainfield, CT

  37. daddydlo permalink
    December 3, 2007 6:39 pm

    Curt,

    I just signed up for a WordPress account but have been reading your blog for a few months now! So much to catch up on… but for starters I want to talk about the possibility of adding Santana to the Sox rotation. I’m not nieve enough to think that by adding Santana that the Sox would dominate, however, there are some disturbing factors that tip the scale in favor of not going through with the trade for me. The pitchers named in the trade (not both) have been Buchholz or Lester with either Coco or Jacoby filling the Twins hole in centerfield left behind by the departure of Torii Hunter. I’m no Theo Epstein, and I have faith in whatever he decides, however if it were me the only possible trade i would entertain is Buchholz and Crisp and a AA guy or two for Santana. Lester is a quality lefty that was highly touted and also proved himself on the biggest stage of all. Ellsbury is a great 5 tool player that also took over a starting position and performed, dare i say, at an MVP level on the greatest stage of them all. If the Twins don’t want Coco, Buchholz, and a few AA guys… no deal. There are no guarantees that Santana will sign a contract extension with the Sox. Perhaps Epstein knows the likeliness of signing Santana to a long term deal, but can you imagine giving up the aforementioned talent for just one year of Santana’s services? The fact that we have a rotation that includes Curt freakin Schilling for 2008, why mortgage the future on the possibility of just getting Santana for that same time frame?

    Just my thoughts… Go Sox!

    Doug Dillon

  38. beantwn permalink
    December 3, 2007 6:52 pm

    I just sit and imagine what some of the young pitchers like Lester and Buchholz will be able to learn from someone like Santana. I mean he has a DEVASTATING change and it would be sweet to see other members of the staff able to tie it into their repitoires. I just wonder what his mental make-up is and will he be able to handle the pressures of Boston. Different worlds Minnesota to Mass. Now I am down in Atlanta and was wonodering how JD would play out in the media especially since he was getting hammered down here for not playing through some injuries. The thought of what the rotation would look like impresses me a whole lot more with Santana in it then what the batting order would look like with Jacoby on top of it. PLus Jacoby is a sky high value right now. I would like to see up hold onto Clay and Jon and let them learn next year from you and Santana and Beckett.

    Seth

  39. spaceman37 permalink
    December 3, 2007 6:55 pm

    Curt, I couldn’t agree with you more, if anyone can attest to the fact that if you really want any of these prospects back, at some point (see Schilling for Boddicker) you can sign them as free agents…the RedSox and the yanks are two of the few teams out there that can afford to ship prospects to teams that need young and cheap talent to survive…I mean you can look at it from the perspective that it keeps the ebb and flow of baseball prosperous….Where would Florida be if they didn’t deal Beckett for Hanley Rameriz..i mean the Sox could have both right now!!imagine that , Is that good for baseball?

  40. 26goinon27 permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:00 pm

    Curt,

    I think the Yankees need to make this deal more than the Red Sox do. If he ends up pitching with yourself, Josh, Dice, Clay, etc. that pitching staff will be the uncontested best staff in the game. As a Yanks fan, its bitter-sweet to see Melky and Phil go, but we have needed a true ace for a few years now. I hope Hank didn’t mess this deal up with his comments yesterday.

  41. nevarc78 permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:02 pm

    Curt-

    Are we really supposed to believe the Yankees will walk away? I guess we can take them for their word. They did, after all, walk away from A-Rod…oops!

  42. schillingsastud38 permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:03 pm

    A rotation with you, Beckett, Santana, Dice-K, and Wake/Lester/Buchholz would be absolutely legendary. How can we not win the division with that rotation? It’s going to be hard to beat out the Yankees though. They say they are going to pull out today but who really believes that. It will be hard to give up the talent we will be giving up but it’s worth it when you are getting a Pedro-like acquisition. Lets just hope we get #57 in a Red Sox uniform.

    By the way Curt, If you want to check out an awesome sports site it would be awesome if you made a post at prosportsdaily.com/forums. The Red Sox forum there is no where near SOSH, but it is still the second best Red Sox site I have been too.

  43. waresuns26 permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:10 pm

    The thought of having a rotation of Beckett, Santana, Schilling, Dice-K, and Wakefield/Bucholz/Lester is just unbelievable…how could we not win it all next year? Virtually the same exact team plus arguably the best pitcher in the game (and if he’s not, then Beckett is.) Pretty awesome to think about, but I’m still not sure I want to part with Jacoby or Lester…

  44. jonathanmccauley permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:19 pm

    I am looking forward to seeing what the Red Sox do over this winter; however, is giving up Ellsbury really worth it in your opinion?

    I believe that this by far is the most interesting baseball winter in a long time.

    On a side note, i am interested to hear your opinion on the BCS and college football. Are you excited about Ohio St and LSU playing in the National Championship?

    I hope all is well!

    -JCM

  45. twistedsistah permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:31 pm

    Please, tell me Theo isn’t really considering trading Ellsbury. Pay them whatever, but keep Ellsbury in CF.

  46. mikenmaryland permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:39 pm

    Curt I would love to have Santana, but it would be sad to see Ellsbury go. How annoying is it to be under trade speculation, knowing that you could potentionally have to move across the country, or god forbid, to Canada.

  47. pemliza permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:40 pm

    Curt, I am interested in what you think of the possibility of the Sox giving up Ellsbury for Santana. I realize that Santana is one of the best pitchers in baseball(in my mind, after Beckett, but then again, I am an unashamed huge Beckett fan!). But I can’t quite wrap my mind around giving up Jacoby Ellsbury, after all he added to the team during his call up and the post season. I’d love to hear your thoughts as a player.

  48. hoyeman permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:42 pm

    Having watched this unfold I hope the redsox fans and players have the chance to see this deal get done. Since many of us remember something about 86 years between titles. You should always try to win right here and right now because it sometimes isn’t that easy. I remember the sox signing this great pitcher from Arizona a few years ago who seems to have made a little impact.

    Hoyeman

  49. ncsoxfan67 permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:42 pm

    Curt love the blog. I just have one question………How do you feel about the possibility of losing Jacoby, who has become such a fan favorite in a short period of time?

  50. ericcgraham3884 permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:44 pm

    Could not agree more, Curt. Good luck in the Santana Sweepstakes, even though we don’t particularly need him.

  51. joecsoxfan permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:45 pm

    Wow, the thought of landing this guy is just too much. Imagine the possibility of having two potential 20 game winners on the staff (with the possibility of a 3rd if Daisuke gets to where he wants to be). I just have a hard time parting with some of that young talent. We have gotten a little spoiled watching them perform wonders the past few seasons and get attached. That being said, who do you feel would affect the team more if they are traded away? Lester is a great talent, but im my opinion the depth of the current rotation and the kids still in the system out- weigh the issue with center field. I understand this would be touchy for you to comment on, but I’d be curious on your opinion.

    Thanks again for always being brutaly honest and keeping us posted on all things Curt Schilling. And thanks again for making my 23rd birthday (Nov. 28) one of my best so far

    Joe Cacciatore

  52. December 3, 2007 7:50 pm

    I want Santana, but not enough to want to see Ellsbury in another uniform. Who’s with me??

  53. splendidsplinter409 permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:50 pm

    I want Santana but is it worth giving up the future and not leting the next generation see a wining red sox team? If they can get Santana for
    Lester and Bucholtz and maybe even Coco for a long term 7-10 year deal then I would say Theo go for it but I wouldn’t give up Jacoby.

  54. atraininmaine permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:52 pm

    I love the idea of having Santana in Boston for the next 5 or 6 years. I will understand why Theo chose to make this deal, if it does happen, because top-tier pitchers at the height of their game are hard to come by. But there is something really special about Ellsbury, that I think Boston fans have only begun to witness. Personally, I’d like to see Theo hang on to Jacoby, because he could be a fixture in centerfield that would very exciting to watch for many years to come. I love what Coco has done with his glove, and I would like him to stay in Boston as well, but I think there is so much more upside to the offensive punch that Jacoby would provide, that it would be worthwhile to hang on to him, even if it meant missing out on Santana.

  55. dianeadele permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:54 pm

    Winter around here has been more fun since thanksgiving 2003, Glad you are here with us to enjoy it. No off season in Red Sox Nation though.

  56. knewaboutjacobybeforeyouwereborn permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:55 pm

    real cool stuff curt. i think it’s great to hear commentary on this from a player, especially one who has been at the center of discussions like these. unfortunately, it doesn’t look like we’re going to have the opportunity to rob the twins like we did the dbacks.

  57. thenation1 permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:55 pm

    Mr.Schilling,

    I understand everyone’s concern’s on trying to attain Mr.Santana, but at what cost is it to the nation. Absolutley Mr. Santana is a power on the mound, but like you know who playing 3rd base for the evil empire does not mean that he will fit in .

    Also, we also have Manny to sign next year , so if we do land Mr. Santana @ $150 million for 5 or 6 years and then pour another $100 million or so on Manny who’s going to suffer when it’s there turn for a new contract.

    We traded Heminez to florida and he was rookie of the year and now we have Ellsbury a potentail star and without his contributions, who know’s how the Indians series would turned out . Don’t we need a center fielder?

    As with yourself and Mr. Lowell loyality is the key, not always money . What if the Sox traded Fred Lynn when he was a rookie , now that would of created an outbreak of some very angry folks. I’m willing to say go along with the trade, but Ellsbury must not be on the table.

    As the Yankee’s are concerned they are big trouble no matter if the land Mr. Santana or not. You have A-Rod $314 million , Santana $150 million plus . A half a billion dollars on 2 players , now that’s crazy . The nation is in a great spot with players wanting to come to bean town.

    Bob- Wichita, Kansas

  58. sox08 permalink
    December 3, 2007 7:56 pm

    The hot stove certainly is burning, Curt! How do you think the addition of Santana would effect the possibilty of a 6 + man rotation?

  59. December 3, 2007 8:04 pm

    This winter has been far more interesting than any that I could remember.

    Question for you, Curt: If the Yankees secure Santana, do you see Theo and the brass going after Erik Bedard of the Orioles? What are your opinions of the left hander?

    Anthony

  60. rayfer permalink
    December 3, 2007 8:05 pm

    i agree curt………hes a premier lefty…..they dont grow on trees. after these last few years i have to trust theo and the gang that they know what they are doing…….if you can get santana you have to do it……theos track record speaks for itself….

  61. fenwaynationchief permalink
    December 3, 2007 8:30 pm

    Curt-

    I agree. It would be a dream rotation for years to come. Can you imagine a post-season opponent feeling any confidence in a short series against us?

    -EP

    Editor-In-Chief
    Fenwaynation.com

  62. December 3, 2007 8:52 pm

    The Yankees also gave A-Rod an ultimatum, so I won’t count on their being out of the running if a deal doesn’t go down today!

  63. kbksoxfan permalink
    December 3, 2007 8:55 pm

    What about Jacoby Ellsbury? He has a great future with the Sox! Are they willing to trade that away?

  64. notyourdadssox permalink
    December 3, 2007 9:04 pm

    Curt first thank you for leading the Sox in 2004 and helping 2007 to W.S. WIN.
    I agree Beckett,Santana,THE best 1-2 in the Bigs then Dice,Shill, CLAY/WAKE/LESTER would make a great starting rotation.
    What would I give up a lot win now the window is small
    the need to win is there. to not give up the future.
    But the future is Now.We have waited to long.
    When the window is open you need to win as many W.S. as you can. You may not get this close again for a long time.
    My Grandfaters were both SOX Fans
    They saw the sox win 5 W.S.
    My father worked for the Sox and he died at age 32 never saw them win the W.S.
    My son and I have seen them win 2. I want to see them
    win many,many more.Theo is young smart and capable
    I enjoy the Henry Tradition WIN AND WIN NOW..
    Santana can do this I do not want to give up young talent
    but sometimes you have to give it up to win.
    5-6 years of JOHAN,JOSH,AND DICE thats a good start.
    We also have only a few more years and Big Papi And Manny being Manny will be but a memory.
    Win Now. Please Theo if you Read this Blog.
    WIN keep the future in mind.
    I have always felt good about the SOX.
    I now know the sox are in good hands
    with a good Owner,G.M. and Manager
    GO THEO,TITO,AND Mr.Henry,
    THANK YOU CURT FOR COMING BACK TO THE RED SOX
    AND SHOWING THIS TEAM HOW TO WIN!!!!!!

  65. tripleplay24 permalink
    December 3, 2007 9:31 pm

    I admire the fact that you are obviously a real fan of the game. It’s so refreshing to hear your perspective. You are a real class act, Curt, and an excellent role model…not just for our youth but also for adults. Thank you for being the unselfish, giving human being whom you are.

  66. loveyanks permalink
    December 3, 2007 9:41 pm

    hey curt, as a yankee fan if you get santana its turn out the lights for yankee fans for many years to come……………….best wishes

  67. iputty permalink
    December 3, 2007 9:49 pm

    Curt, I agree and I think that Theo is playing this the right way. For some reason, the Twins seem to prefer the Sox’ potential return over the Yankees’. Maybe they’re still pissed that Eric Milton didn’t turn out the way they envisioned when they dealt Knoblauch. Regardless, let the Steinbrenners self destruct (which is what appears to be happening) while Theo takes his time and deliberately stalls while caving in to include Ellsbury with Lester. As a Sox fan it’s tough not to love Ellsbury but to get Santana? In a heartbeat. A leadoff guy with no power is easier to replace than a multiple Cy Young winner.

    I also agree that the Dodgers may be a darkhorse sneaking in, although they really need hitting first. Their prospects are as good if not better than the Sox’ or Yanks’ and they could give a cheap closer in Broxton allowing the Twins to shop Nathan. Who knows.

    Best of luck in the offseason.

  68. lhforrette permalink
    December 3, 2007 10:03 pm

    Ok a Twins fan here. I can’t believe we would trade Johan Santana for what the Sox are offering. I saw Ellsbury in the World Series…and yes he really played well. I’ll admit he is a good player and is a hustler. A class act and a guy you want on your team.

    But I look at his numbers at every level…he’s a 300 hitter that steals bases and will hit 12 homers a year. Yes he plays a great center field. But his offensive numbers are simply above average. Not great.

    Santana, on the other hand, is the best left hander I have seen in about 25 years. People outside Minny see his strikeouts, they see how he can just dominate a game but one thing folks don’t see is the guys unbelievable consistency. He is good is every game. The only reason he hasn’t been 23-5 over the last 5 years is that Twins have a sub-par offense. If you look at his numbers in 2005 (the year in between the Cy Youngs) he should have one that won as well…and the only reason he did not was wins and loses. His stats were the best.

    On the Sox or Yankees this guy will win 25 games.

    He’s always healthy, and he is a gamer. His attitude is perfect.

    For what the Sox are offering…you are stealing him.

  69. papifan permalink
    December 3, 2007 10:08 pm

    Curt, I am hoping Ellsbury, Buchholz, and Lester remain on the team. 25 million is a lot for one player. I think all three of these guys have proven that they are more then unproven AAA guys. One pitched a no hitter in his 2nd start. The other won Game 4 of the World Series. And the other was considered for WS MVP by batting 438 in these series. In fact Jacoby was an integral part of the team’s championship run IMO. In fact two of the three already have a been postseason track record then Johan Santana. Santana in the postseason is 1-4 with a 3.97 ERA. Jon only gave up 2 runs in 9 and a third innings in the postseason. His career ERA is 6.89 in Fenway. The Sox did not need Roger Clemens. You and the Sox do not need Santana. In fact signing him to this kind of money could hinder the team from keeping essential players in the future like Josh Beckett and Jonathan Papelbon. Investing that much money in Santana might hinder the Red Sox from keeping Beckett long-term. And also a lot of fans like myself are very excited about getting to see Ellsbury play. He is an extremely exciting player and could be an AL version of Jose Reyes. I don’t see the Mets trading Reyes.

  70. cureese permalink
    December 3, 2007 10:50 pm

    Hello Curt,
    I am sure that you do not remember me but my parents and I had the pleasure of meeting you in August 2006 during the Yankees home stretch. My father is among the unfortunate people who has suffered from ALS. Unfortunately my father lost his battle last Thursday with ALS. I just wanted to let you know the pleasure it brought to my parents life to have the opportunity to meet you. That day brought such joy to both my father and my mother’s life and I wanted you to know how grateful I am to you for that. Hopefully we will find a cure for the disease soon so no one else has to suffer. Thank you again of bringing such happiness to their life during such a tough time. I could never thank you enough.

    Marisa

  71. wickedworld123 permalink
    December 3, 2007 11:14 pm

    Hah, the Yanks are all talk anyway. I’m sure they’re putting up a deadline just to try and make things easier for themselves, but if Minnesota comes back to them in a month and says they’d like to accept the Yanks offer, they’re not gonna turn it down. Let’s face it, it’s Johan Santana. I’m already a big fan of Ellsbury, Lester and Bucholz, I’d hate to give any one of them up. But if we’re going to give up any one of them, who better to do it for than Mr. Johan Santana. Should be interesting. Worst case scenario we have a rotation of Beckett, Schilling, Matsuzaka, Wakefield, Lester, with Bucholz getting starts in, and Ellsbury as our starting centerfielder. It’s hard not to be optimistic.

  72. yankees1970 permalink
    December 3, 2007 11:22 pm

    Your sorry team as well as your fans wish that you get Santana in your team. That will never happen. You can;t comapre stabliushed players like the yankees have to some third level players like the ones that you want to give to the Twins. By the way, ever since you were in Arizona I have never liked your attitude for the game. You wish you would had pitched for the Yankees sometime in your career.

    The Red Sox will not win the division in 2008, 2009 or 2010. You got lucky this year since the yanks had some many players hurt. 2008 will be a different story

  73. mannyramirez1 permalink
    December 4, 2007 12:15 am

    Hi Curt,
    When I heard that Theo put Jacoby out there I nearly threw up! Jacoby? JACOBY!?!
    Please relay the following to Theo: The Kid Stays!

  74. ilikemike64 permalink
    December 4, 2007 12:32 am

    I cannot begin to believe that we would even think of trading Ellsbury – the fans really believe, justifiably, that they will have the chance to see this young kid blossom into a superstar before their eyes, and it stinks to deprive them of it. The team will do it without Santana – would like to see us get Johan, but not by trading Ellsbury!

  75. brianmellor permalink
    December 4, 2007 1:14 am

    As much as i’d LOVE to get Johan… i LOVE Jacoby Ellsbury and we shouldnt give him up…. my buddy and i wrote and recorded a song last night titled “Don’t Trade Jacoby”. Please check it out and leave some feedback…

    …and Mr. Curt Schilling you are my hero! Thank you for everything you’ve done for this team. You are a true gentleman!

  76. ikondave permalink
    December 4, 2007 1:31 am

    Santana is very impressive, no question here. But I agree with the other folks who wonder if trading Ellsbury away is such a good idea. When I see Ellsbury, I think Joe Dimaggio or our own Ted Williams. I believe he has that kind of potential. It’s also great to see a player move through minor league ball into the bigs in one organization. Finally there’s are the intangible considerations. In Ellsbury’s case, I think he’ll make an outstanding member of the Red Sox in terms of ability,determination, and class.

  77. kerubino22 permalink
    December 4, 2007 1:32 am

    no;
    dan harren’d be a much more sensible option, fiscally as well as baseball wise.
    santana certainly is great; it’s just something about it feels wrong, or out of place.
    and you know what else, any player this (new) steinbrenner wants from this moment going forward he ought to be allowed to have, for no other (nor better) reason than he is a total dumbass, and dumbasses usually shoot themselves in the foot… in their mouths.

    peaches!

  78. wcp5008 permalink
    December 4, 2007 2:12 am

    I’m really torn about the whole Santana thing. I’ve been following Clay since he hit the Seadogs, me and my mom would check the web and find out when his starts were just to see him play and boy is he something special. I’ve seen Jacoby play on a couple occasions in AA plus his play in the bigs and he has superstar potential. Jon Lester is going to be a solid pitcher. It would be hard for me to imagine the Sox without any one of these 3 over the next few years. Santana would bring a lot to this team, Beckett, Santana, Dice-K, Schill, Wake/whoever would make one amazing rotation. When Tim Wakefield, Clay Bucholz or Jon Lester are 5th in a rotation you know its one for the books. It’s the whole future vs. present thing, Santana could get us another WS instantly, while the 3 kids could bring us several in a few years. I’d be heart broken to see any of them go, but I would understand why. Here’s to another one folks.

  79. oliver505 permalink
    December 4, 2007 2:34 am

    I have read the points made here and think some of you are missing Curt’s point.

    As a Twins fan, I can tell you that the majority of those oppossing this clearly do not have any idea just how incredible Santana is. I think it is safe to say he has been baseball’s best pitcher over the past four years but you need to consider more than just accilades.

    1) In the past four years he has put up over 900 innings; a testiment to his durabiity that I’m sure Curt can attest to. Did I mention he is left handed? Also despite the perception, his changup isn’t his only pitch.

    2) During that span….playing 1/2 of his games roughly in the Metrodome which is hardly pitcher friendly, Santana has had three years with ERA’s under 3 and his “off” year, 3.33.

    3) Despite not getting elevated to a starting pitcher until after a couple of seasons in relief, his record is a staggering 93-44; this playing on a team that has been pretty decent and pretty poor through that stretch.

    4) Prior to last season, the most losses Santana has taken in the previous four years was SEVEN; this inspite of the fact that he started 118 games during that span. One of the reasons the Twins relief staff had been so dominant was that they knew every five days there was no way they had to bring in a relief pitcher until at least the seventh inniing. The amount of “quality starts” by Santana in relation to any other pitcher in the league over the past five years is not comparable.

    5) He has had 983 K’s in the past four years; a number I doubt any other pitcher in baseball can touch. Santana, at 29, has done something that even a pitcher of HOF credentials in my opinion (and the gentleman whose blog we are enjoying, C.S,) has not done during his fantastic career; throw four consecutive seasons of 235+ K.

    6) Did I mention he is left handed? Does anyone not think the Yankees are accutely aware of how much damage a great left hander presents? Right handed batters have a career .220 average and more importantly only a .276 OBP against him. No one steals on him, no one bunts on him and he just won a Gold Glove. This guy is absolutly the complete package.

    And he is only 29

    So look, with regards to the talent the Sox may end up having to part with; undoubtedly it is legitimate and would be difficult to replace but I have news for you, they will be replacable but a once in a generation perhaps pitcher of Santana’s ilk simply is not.

    The good news for Twins fans is that they may actually have someone in Liriano in the wings who could be better….health permitting.

    If you get him, enjoy him for a good 7-8 years because believe me, he will be at the top of that already very impressive rotation.

  80. philberglund permalink
    December 4, 2007 3:33 am

    As much as i hate to admit it, Pitchers don’t win games by themselves. An outfielder like Jacoby will win far more games with their fielding and hitting. With out defensive AND offence support, No pitcher can win. Dice-K would have won 20 games with consistant support. The Red Sox have been to quick to give up valuable players to obtain big names in the past. You were the exception. Keep the players we have and let Johan “help” some one else!!!

  81. poltroop permalink
    December 4, 2007 3:50 am

    Mr. Schilling,
    On the Boston.com message board, there is a debate going on about whether (players such as Papelbon and yourself) talking about how great it would be to pick up Santana could hurt the morale on the team. This guy is saying that people such as Coco and Ellsbury would think you would rather see this guy with the team instead of them. Would you care to straighten out this guy for me?

    Thanks
    lol

  82. stifler2007 permalink
    December 4, 2007 4:45 am

    2008 Starting Rotation:

    1) Josh Beckett (Righty)
    2) Johan Santana (Lefty)
    3) Curt Schilling (Righty)
    4) John Lester (Lefty)
    5) Daisuke Matzusaka (Righty)

    Just looking at this list make me drool…

    Anyways… The Twins are just bluffing right now. They know they won’t be able to keep Santana (even though they traded away another pitcher). The fact of the matter is that the Red Sox and Yankees are the ones in control; not the Twins. They Yankees did good on setting up a deadline for the Twins to make a decision (it also benefits us), because they know no good will come of a Betting Race with the Red Sox. Ultimately, we should just keep our offer as it was… without involving Jacoby. Jacoby is a goldmine, he belongs to us under contract for $350,000 per year!!! That is pocket change for Theo, considering the fact that we are talking about a .310+ AVG and 35+ SB, 190+ hits and with an OBP of over .500 every single season. If not the Twins will have to take a big gamble and play with Santana ’till the Trade Deadline, and decide then. But if they do that, the offers may not be as good as the ones presented during the Winter Meetings.

    I doubt that the Twins will take that gamble. They would most rather start 2008 with their new team, in order to start developing the prospects they receive for the Santana deal, during spring training.

  83. matthewreid permalink
    December 4, 2007 4:59 am

    Fingers crossed that Theo works out a trade for Johan that doesn’t involve Jacoby Ellsbury.

    Every once in a while, a special player comes along that combines talent, passion, potential and a child-like love of the game…a player who is so fun to watch that you almost don’t even care if they win…(okay, let’s not get carried away)…

    Jacoby Ellsbury IS that player.

    From the time he beat out that routine grounder to short for a basehit…and scored from 1B on a single!…I knew I wanted to watch this kid for a long, long time!

    Please, Theo, et al, DON’T TRADE JACOBY!

  84. goodnewsdude16 permalink
    December 4, 2007 6:03 am

    I’d hate to see any of our “top three” prospects (i.e., Ellsbury, Lester or Buchholz) leave, but for Santana losing one might be worth it.

  85. pocket8pin permalink
    December 4, 2007 6:51 am

    As much as I’d love to get Johan Santana, I do think the price is a bit steep. I’ve got to believe that with the rest of the Sox pitching staff, someone like Dan Haren would give you 75% of Santana at 50% of the cost. I’d be happy to win the division by 5 games instead of 8.

    You’ve seen Haren a lot closer up than I have, Curt. What’s your opinion of his talent level compared to Santana’s?

  86. sdl1 permalink
    December 4, 2007 6:54 am

    I would hate to see Ellsbury go. I met him in ST during a AA/AAA game with the Orioles minor leaguers in Sarasota. Nice kid, polite and if he’s included in a deal, the Twins have got a hell of OF. I would also hate to lose Lester, but when you want to get a good veteran pitcher (Santana). you have to give up a good young pitcher (Lester). For a previous example, go back 10 years when the Sox gave up a kid named Carl Pavano for some guy named Pedro.

    Maybe Theo made a few clunkers for trades (Shea Hillenbrand for B H Kim and Arroyo for WMP) but if he can land Santana for Lester and maybe Lowrie, it would make us odds-on favorites to go back to the Fall Classic in ’08.

  87. December 4, 2007 8:30 am

    Who knows if the rumors are true but it looks like it may be Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson for Santana. Not too bad. That being said, Santana has never pitched in the media fishbowl that is Boston. Don’t get me wrong. I LOVE Boston… but I hope there are those on the team ready to help Santana ease into the mayhem. ; ) Pitching in Minnesota just doesn’t compare. So, I will cautiously withhold being too excited for now, all the while hoping that Santana can flourish under the intensity of Red Sox Nation.

  88. worldserieschamps0407 permalink
    December 4, 2007 8:37 am

    Hey. I watched the game all the way from Korea and I screamed at Pap’s last pitch for the strikeout. :) It was great. Good season!

    Anyway… i have to agree with anyone who said that Theo knows what he’s doing. One World Series is still questionable but two in four years? Gotta figure he’s doing something right. Plus the fact, he’s basically brought back the entire championship team with the exception of the bench. The thing is that the Sox don’t have to get him now. Santana’s a free agent next season and Boston could just sign him then. I love Ellsbury but Coco is just as able if not better in center field. Plus, playing one month and even in postseason isn’t always going to translate to a full season. Coco’s a proven player whereas Jacoby is still basically a rookie. Lester is ready to be a starter and Buchholz has an incredible amount of potential as we saw from the no hitter. These two could be the anchors of the Boston rotation in the future. And the idea that Beckett wouldn’t welcome a competitor within his own team is ridiculous. Beckett-Santana could be 1A-1B with Dice K as a SOLID #2. And I don’t even think Dice-K would be satisfied being the number 2. We will WANT to be the number one starter. That gives THREE great pitchers constantly pushing each other and just getting better. Johan is a future hall of fame pitcher if he keeps pitching like the way he has. Beckett is the next Schilling in postseason as we have seen and Dice-K will get better, I don’t doubt that. Just because you have a good prospect, that cannot make up for a poor rotation (not that Boston has a poor rotation). But if you have 3 guys who are getting into their primes and are going to be on your team and anchor the rotation for the next 4-5 years, it’s gonna take you a LONG way. Pitching is everything. But Minnesota does ask for too much. Giving two of either Lester, Buchholz and Ellsbury is over the top.
    Boston doesn’t absolutely need to sign Johan. Their main concern should be getting bench players and resigning Kielty.
    THE SOX CAN WAIT. Any other team would have taken Boston or even New York’s offer by now but I think that Minnesota will eventually keep him for a year.
    Good job again this season Sox, we’re looking foward to next season!

  89. December 4, 2007 8:46 am

    Calvinballer,

    “I agree with the Sports Guy when he said if you can give up a few players who are not even in your top 15 from last year and get back Johan, it’s a no brainer.”

    Thing is, you’re only getting one year of Johan. You’re giving up 20+ controlled years in minor / major league talent for… one year. After that, you’re paying full market price, which you could also pay by waiting a year for him to hit the market and not giving up your prospects.

    I agree that’s a “no brainer” move, but not exactly in the same way I expect you mean it ;p

    Beantwn,

    “I just sit and imagine what some of the young pitchers like Lester and Buchholz will be able to learn from someone like Santana. I mean he has a DEVASTATING change and it would be sweet to see other members of the staff able to tie it into their repitoires.”

    Buchholz is already considered to have one of the best changes in the major leagues, right now. If he keeps his head on straight and stays healthy (and I ilke any young pitcher’s chances much better in the system the Sox have developed), his ceiling is probably close to that of Johan’s. The brass knows this, which is why he’s the one “true untouchable” in all these trade talks. He’ll be innings-limited for the next season, but we can all reasonably expect a hell of a treat watching this kid throw for the next several years.

    26goinon27,

    Agree. I have to admit, though, that I really like Hank. He’ll have a learning curve to go through, obviously, but he seems like a good fit as an executive for that franchise. Much moreso than his old man. If they leave Cashman to do his thing, I think you guys have nothing to worry about in the long run.

    Hoyeman,

    “You should always try to win right here and right now because it sometimes isn’t that easy.”

    Incorrect. Gene Michael didn’t try to “win right now”, which was hoe he pulled the NY franchise up out of the doldrums and initiated the Tankee Dynasty of the late 90′s. The entire lesson we should all have learned was that they Yankees succeeded with talent that came up through their system, with solid veterans surrounding them and teaching them the right way to be a Yankee. That philosophy won 4 Series titles for NY, but got tossed out the window by Big Stein after ‘losing’ in 01. They brought in a slew of high-priced FA’s over the next several; years, and it got them where?

    I can name two other guys who tried to “win right now”: Omar Minaya and J.P. Riccardi. Synonymous with success? No.

  90. December 4, 2007 8:50 am

    “72 yankees1970

    Your sorry team as well as your fans wish that you get Santana in your team. That will never happen. You can;t comapre stabliushed players like the yankees have to some third level players like the ones that you want to give to the Twins. By the way, ever since you were in Arizona I have never liked your attitude for the game. You wish you would had pitched for the Yankees sometime in your career.

    The Red Sox will not win the division in 2008, 2009 or 2010. You got lucky this year since the yanks had some many players hurt. 2008 will be a different story”

    This is just too much fun to pass up.

    “in your team?” Did you intend to write “on your team?”

    can;t must be can’t
    stabliushed = established

    I don’t think Schilling cares what you think about his attitude for the game. LOL

    Can you really see the future? What are the upcoming Powerball numbers?

    “The Yanks had some many players hurt.” Shouldn’t that be “so many?” Since when have MFY fans allowed for that reason for any other team. Shut up and accept that part of the game is playing through injuries.

  91. December 4, 2007 9:01 am

    Quote and unamed NL GM:

    “If the Red Sox get Santana, that will make the best team in the friggin’ universe”

    I can’t wait, and my this is not your Daddy’s Red Sox team. I LOVE IT!

  92. jimmykc permalink
    December 4, 2007 9:30 am

    Curt: Nothing “funner” on a cold winter morning than perusing your blog and the comments. IMHO the only reason Jacoby’s name came up is to force the Yanks to cough up more than they should. We’ll see.

  93. fryman1918 permalink
    December 4, 2007 10:05 am

    Ok, I have to correct myself Curt. I thought Santana would be locked down by now. I’m now restating my prediction from “playing catch up” and saying Santana will be in Beantown before the Pats kick of against the Steelers.

    And on the trade rumors, I saw Lester pitch his last game in ’06 in Fenway against the yanks before leaving the team with lymphoma and I saw him in his first game back in ’07. he is an extremely courageous kid and it should never be forgotten what he did on the mound in game 4 to lock down your second ring. Good luck to everything in his career’s future whether it be in a Sox jersey or not.

    Thanks for the update Curt. Always an enjoyable blog.

  94. thedoctorx permalink
    December 4, 2007 10:35 am

    Agree with the general sentiment above: do not want to see Ellsbury go.

    Would like Santana. Do not take this personal, but you and Wake may need a rest at some point in the year. It is a long year. A rotation with Santana not only is “the best in the friggin’ universe” as is being quoted all over ESPN, it is–with Beckett, Dice-K, You, and Wakes a stable rotation. If something happens, you do not have to plug in a set-up man or closer to start. Nothing you do not know already, of course.

    Lester struggled a bit here and there this year as to be expected. I only expect him to get better. Choosing between either Lester or Ellsbury is not a choice I would want to make, but I am, fortunately for the team, not Theo, Tito, et al. Heck, I would hate to see Coco go. I suppose it is good that the team is in such a position.

    Finally, unfortunately, it will be a “good thing” for the MFYs not to have Santana.

    –J.D.

  95. rosco78 permalink
    December 4, 2007 11:01 am

    Hey Curt,anyone ever tell you that you’re the 21st century Living Legend!?I’d love to see Johan in the Bean,as you state he’s the best lefty in the game BUT the staff we have know is WS tested and PROVEN.To see Ellsbury shipped out would be one of the most painful moves I’ve had to endure in my 30yrs of Boston fandome.Having this rotation I would look to Jacoby who may be the best 5 point player in the league(I know he’s young)to be the offensive catalyst of this team,batting lead-off w/scrappy Dusty and the big cat behind him would be the best 123 I could ever imagine.Honestly I believe we’re fine right know and we don’t need to add anyone except a reliever or two.Tell the F/O to stop running scared and act like you just won a WS!DON”T TRADE JACOBY!!!!!

  96. thewitt85 permalink
    December 4, 2007 11:03 am

    Santana would be an amazing pick up, but losing Ellsbury may not be worth it. Losing your lead-off hitter for at least the next ten years is a steep price. Ellsbury would be the igniter for this team. Look at what Jimmy Rollins did for the Phillies last year. Ellsbury and Pedroia at the top of the lineup is exciting, and losing Ellsbury has me concerned.

  97. December 4, 2007 11:23 am

    Oliver505, excellent post. I want to comment on a couple points:

    “1) In the past four years he has put up over 900 innings; a testiment to his durabiity that I’m sure Curt can attest to [...].”

    True – but that’s also wear and tear on an elbow that, correct me if I’m wrong, has already had one surgical proceedure. That workload, combined with past medical history and his stats this season make people a little queasy. If you’re going to sign a player, particularly a pitcher, to a $125 – $150mm deal, you want to be 110% sure his durability is sustainable. Speaking for myself, I’ll rest a lot easier on this point once I know the Sox have signed off on Santana’s medicals. Until then, I worry. I’m a Sox fan, I was bred to worry ;p

    “2) During that span….playing 1/2 of his games roughly in the Metrodome which is hardly pitcher friendly, Santana has had three years with ERA’s under 3 and his “off” year, 3.33.

    [...]

    4) Prior to last season, the most losses Santana has taken in the previous four years was SEVEN [...]“

    This is part of the reason for the subdued response, and it feeds into my rebuttal to point 1; specifically, the fact that he had his highest ERA, allowed the most homers and lost the most games of his career in ’07 does not lend itself to the belief that everything is “hunky dorey”. If he’d come out and had a typically Santana-esque year and threw up a 2.90 with 16 HR’s allowed, you wouldn’t see the trepidation. But he didn’t, and it was a bad time for him to have an “off year”. Not as calamitous as Andruw Jones, though :D

    “If you get him, enjoy him for a good 7-8 years because believe me, he will be at the top of that already very impressive rotation.”

    That’s probably unlikely. The much greater likelihood is that we can expect to see 3-4 great years out of him, followed by 3-4 more years of declining performance. His odds are better, given that he’s not a “power pitcher” who will need to redesign his game as he ages and his velo drops, but statistics still would indicate that his chance of pitchnig at a truly elite level will fall off sometime after his 33rd birthday. Assuming, of course, that he remains healthy for the length of the contract.

    And as I mentioned earlier, there are the PR / Ego / Payroll issues to contend with. How do you introduce Santana as your new #1 when you consider what Beckett did for us this season? But given Santana’s resume, how do you not? What does that do to Beckett’s mindset? ow do you handle his contract extension, and how expensive does he immediately become? If you bring in this elite pitcher, don’t you have to bump an ineffective Wakefield out to make a slot for Buchholz, who has vastly superior skills? How does that affect Wake, being sent to the ‘pen, after being a “heart and soul” guy in Boston for so long, and assuming he was being re-upped to start next season? the juggling act gets easier once our kind host retires after ’08, but in the meantime, you have a mess of issues related to this trade – and you get to pay $125mm minimum for the privilege of figuring it out.

    Nobody here is debating that Santana has proven himself to be the best pitcher in the majors. Nobody is debating that he’s been the picture of the “perfect professional ballplayer” in his brilliant career. But even for Johan Santana, there is a price that is “too much” to pay – that’s the line we’re debating here.

  98. bosoxnut permalink
    December 4, 2007 11:32 am

    I could part with Lester, Masterson, Crisp, and Lowrie without hesitation. But please, not Ellsbury. He is by far the most exciting rookie coming up in the Sox organization since Nomar. I am hopeful that we will have the pleasure to watch him everyday next year in centerfield.

    That said, I say let’s go get Santana. I would love to see a rotation of Santana, Beckett, Schilling, Matsusaka, and Wakefied, with Buchholz ready to step in as well. That would be fun to watch.

  99. 2k7sox permalink
    December 4, 2007 11:36 am

    Curt,
    I would like to thank you for you years of service to New England, The Red Sox and the fight against ALS.

    I think if every player in all sports reached out to their fans like you do at 38pitches.com most players would be as respected as you are.

    As for Johan, I say WOW, You, Josh and Johan 1,2, and 3…really don’t matter what order you pitch, it would be a devestating 123 punch. Then add Dice-K and you have hell for opponents.

    Keep up the great work and I can’t wait for Spring training. Rest up and be ready (also drop a little weight and I bet you gain a few miles per hour back on that fastball).
    AJ Mahoney

  100. jimnick permalink
    December 4, 2007 11:38 am

    Santana would be awesome in the rotation we would be crazy not to get him but losing Ellsbury…not to sure if thats a great idea he did give us that spark to come back vs. cleveland.Crisp Lester and and onother prospect what the heck why not.Imagine Beckett,Santana,Dice K You(schill)and Wake theres at least 80 wins right there oh my !!!!

  101. December 4, 2007 11:38 am

    curt,

    we already have a great pitching staff (you’re welcome), i don’t think its truly worth the sacrifice of loosing such an obviously historical player like jacoby. now, i know i probably don’t know everything, if i did i’d have theo’s job. but everyone in bosox nation is really excited to see someone like jacoby, who has such talent and really seems to “fit in” with the rest of the team, get to actually play in more games than none.
    I’m just saying, yeah, having santana would be kinda cool. but molding jacoby into the type of guy who not only is going to be one of the best in the league but also the type of guy who’ll take a paycheck cut to stay with appreciative/demanding fans would just be awesome. anyways, great blog!

  102. soxfaninny29 permalink
    December 4, 2007 11:45 am

    Ok…..here is my bid on the whole trade thing. we have amazing pitching already. lester and clay makes it that much better. in my eyes last year, the weakest link wasnt coco, wasn’t drew……it was lugo. he didnt play well last year. only productive thing he did was get a few bunts and stolen bases. GO AFTER A GOOD SHORTSTOP!!!! PLEASE!!!!

  103. oddsbreaker permalink
    December 4, 2007 11:51 am

    My 2 Cents
    Curt first time visitor,just want to say its pretty cool of you to actually extend yourself in this way and share insights with us and listen to ours,Right On!.
    For what it’s worth I think the potential of Jacoby Ellsbury is unlimited,his speed alone is something The Red Sox haven’t seen in….Never!
    He is a prototype lead off hitter that I feel would have a Great OBP.
    I know Santana is a Stud, but I just Love this Ellsbury Cat.
    Just in case Theo checks in here every now & then, I got one thing for him.
    Say it ain’t So Theo, Please Don’t Trade Ellsbury.
    Nice Work on ReSigning our Man Curt & Mike Lowell…Sweet
    Keep up the Good Work.

  104. nvasoxfan permalink
    December 4, 2007 12:02 pm

    I disagree with signing Santana… Yeah, he’s ferocious, and a great competitor… But, will he win more games that Buchholz AND Lester this year? I don’t think so… Plus, a position player pays dividends EVERY DAY… We all know the pain of giving up on Hanley Ramirez, even though this was a trade you make 10 out of 10 times… But, this one is not as tempting, in my opinion, because we have Lester, Ellsbury, and Bucholz already in the fold… I say STAND PAT, let Lester and Buchholz pitch alongside #38 for a couple more years… And let Ellsbury and Pedroia anchor the top of our lineup for the next 10 years…
    Another thing to consider, we need to re-negotiate Pap’s contract… Not later, NOW… Use that money that Santana would demand to lock up Papelbon for a long term deal…
    the deal, if done at all, shold be Lester, Crisp, Justin Masterson, and, throw in Craig Hansen… This gives Minnesota an option when Nathan becomes too pricey.. Hansen has no value to us down the road as long as Papelbon is here… Minnesota would be stupid to pass on that…
    Lastly, I’d like to see the Yanks sign Santana… He’d have so much pressure on him, with the decline of Mussina and Pettitte, that he’d probably have an off year… Even if he wins 20, it’s doubtful that Mussina and Pettitte follow suit… Let the Yanks have him…

    KEEP ELLSBURY!!!!!!!!!!!

  105. mvernon77 permalink
    December 4, 2007 12:41 pm

    People, please stop listening to WEEI. Turn on ESPN radio or read a newspaper from somewhere other than here(that said, I think Sean McAdam is usually right on).

    Look at Johan Santana’s stats, they are ridiculous and he’s 29. Curt came here at 37 and we won 2 World Series. With all due respect, Santana is a lefty Pedro and a far superior pitcher to Schilling, past and present. Teaming up Beckett and Santana is just not fair for the rest of baseball.

    Let’s break it down:

    First off: Would you do the Beckett for Ramirez trade again? If your answer is no, stop reading , because you cannot be helped. Of course you would.

    Second off: to emphasize the first point, listen closely cause Josh Beckett is really good but Johan Santana is THE BEST pitcher in baseball and if you can get him for prospects and yes, they are prospects(Ellsbury has under 200 major league at-bats) you do it. There have been many more “prospects” who have not panned out than have and Johan Santana is as close to a sure thing as you can get.

    The potential is clearly there for Ellsbury but some of the people who have said things like he is the best “5 point player”(which I assume is 5 tool) is just ludicrous. He is a 3 tool player, and certainly not the best. Some other genius wrote that no pitcher is worth Ellsbury. Come on guys and gals. Let’s be reasonable, please. I can handle people sucking up to Curt but the idea that Ellsbury is somehow not worth Johan Santana is absolutely insane.

    That said, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. Remember the “why trade for Kevin Garnett when you have the next Kevin Garnett” people. Anyone who thought that, let me reply to that in your language: “How’s that workin’ on for ya?”

    Do not let your passion and naivete cloud your judgement.

    If you’re still not convinced, I’ll make it simple, Healthy Santana = World Series. Done and done. Go Sox.

  106. jrgeitzatsbcglobalnet permalink
    December 4, 2007 1:41 pm

    Jacoby Ellsbury is too exciting to give up. You can never have enough leadoff men, either.

  107. jrgeitzatsbcglobalnet permalink
    December 4, 2007 1:52 pm

    Last thing, then I’ll go. Who was the best leadoff man we’ve ever had and how does he compare with Ellsbury at this stage of his career?

  108. thejadoon permalink
    December 4, 2007 2:00 pm

    Mr. Schilling
    I will try to keep to the facts and only the facts.

    Your friends at WEEI (The D of D) have spent last week “speculating” on why Sean Taylor died.

    They “speculated” that he must have done something to cause his death.

    “The shot to the groin could not have been an accident”

    “It must have been a message”

    “why didn’t he live in the DC area”

    They admonished a caller who stated they were getting close to being racist in their comments,

    and they asked how he could “play the race card”.

    They were only “speculating”

    A short time later they let a caller spend 10 to 15 minutes spew what could at best be called race based hatred and finally had to bleep him when he used some term to refer to a black man.

    When a caller stated that both black and white athletes got in trouble – Callahan stated “ya ya but the Sports Illustrated article stated more blacks got in trouble” – that’s not playing the race card is it?

    The two guys that The Boston Phoenix dubbed the Duo of Dung – see link – have made other statements, comments or jokes–
    http://72.166.46.24/boston/news_features/editorial/documents/03218005.asp

    That some might consider inappropriate – you tell me!

    1. A guy could go broke getting her drunk so you can take advantage of her – RAPE?

    2. After reading a story about a women who molested 11 and 12 year old boys – was she at least HOT – while play suggestive sounds from some old TV show or movie.

    3. I remember the old days (Halloween reference) when I could put on my sheet and make believe I was in the Klan.

    And I only listen for about 15 minutes a day – can you imagine what I have missed.

    These are your guys – your words not mine – are they funny?

    Can anyone tell we what are they and why do you, Tom Brady, Doc Rivers, the Red Sox, Celtics, Patriots, Boston College, Channels 4, 5, 25, NESN, Comcast Sports, The Globe and the Herald say nothing!

    Could it be that every single one of you is making money from your relationship with WEEI and/or ENTERCOM?

    Looking forward to your comments

  109. vmonico13 permalink
    December 4, 2007 2:19 pm

    personally..i think we got a great bullpen and great starting pitchers (including you, Curt, of course) and i really really dont think that giving up jacoby is worth santana…we need a good, yound center fielder and crisp doesnt always put it out there for us as a batter either..jacoby is a big package himself and losing him would be stupid….

    Relay to Theo: Santana is not worth the loss of an amazing center fielder like jacoby

    IN THEO WE TRUST!

  110. bobo44ap permalink
    December 4, 2007 2:20 pm

    I’m extremely excited about the possibility of getting Santana from Minnesota. From what I have heard up until this point is that we are looking to trade Lester or Ellsbury. I understand Ellsbury would be a tough player to let go, but keep in mind in winter 2005, we traded away Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez as well as a few other players for Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell. The point I’m trying to make here is that the players we traded away are no different than the players being mentioned in this trade except for the fact that Ellsbury and Lester have been in the league for a year or so.

    All I’m trying to say is that if we have the opportunity to get a two time Cy Young award winner for a few players who haven’t reached their potential yet, then when should do everything we can to make that happen.

  111. December 4, 2007 2:50 pm

    I see the liberal speech fascists have invaded this discussion.

    Let’s try to stay on topic, k?

  112. Matt Zimmitti permalink
    December 4, 2007 3:23 pm

    Speaking of big roster pickups, congrats on Jon Laff. Definitely a good pick to be heading up your tech.

  113. sacal permalink
    December 4, 2007 5:12 pm

    In my oppinion , I think its going to far offering Jacoby and Jon Lester. It be nice to have santana on the team, though i dont think it should big news. Dice-K was new to america this year i know he improve greatly and Red sox have a very good bullpen. I just dont think we should let go of Jacoby or Jon for Santana.

  114. daveinmelrose permalink
    December 4, 2007 5:12 pm

    Sweet – Schilling, Beckett, Santana, Wake, Dice-K. Ha ha ha. I love it. What I love even more is Hank Steinbrenner’s whining about all of it – his “take it or leave it” position is working quite well with Minnesota, isn’t it? Great job, kid! Sucks to have to fill your dad’s shoes, huh?

    Hey Curt – winter in New England is great, for so many reasons, not the least of which is the crazy off-season dealing. Sure, everyone in L.A. and similar places says our weather sucks, but when’s the last time you heard about forest fires, mudslides, tornadoes, floods (well, forget that one!) or other disasters hitting us? When a forest fire takes the house down the street, snow doesn’t seem so bad. (bad taste joke; I apologize to everyone in San Diego who has suffered from the fires this past fall)

  115. oliver81 permalink
    December 4, 2007 7:08 pm

    Ok folks, ..lets review. Let us take a walk down memory lane and dwell on the Red Sox’s last two World Series. What do we think of first on 04? Curt’s superhuman performance on one leg. Shoot forward to this fall’s blissful events. We think of Josh Beckett’s machine like performances in all three series. IT IS ALL ABOUT PITCHING! Yes, Jacoby’s got potential for greatness. Yes, he’s exciting to watch and he’s a great kid. But, ….at the end of the day there are 8 other players on the field hitting and fielding. Their control of the game is limited to their chances at the plate and balls hit their way. The pitcher, on the other hand, has far more influence on the outcome of the game. If the opponents can’t score, the pressure on the other 8 player is significantly lessened. Now imagine teams having to face Beckett, and all the filthyness he brings, then have to crawl back the next day to see the same filthyness factor from the other side of the rubber.

    Curt, ..thank you so much for this wonderful forum, ..rock on!!!

  116. redsoxgirl78910 permalink
    December 4, 2007 7:18 pm

    Although Santana is exciting to watch, I would much rather keep Ellsbury. Look at what the guy’s done for the Sox this past season…..how and WHY would he be traded when he has so much to offer the Red Sox. I really do care about this dicision because we have a strong bullpen, and have finally found ourselves a solid outfielder! I believe that keeping a player who can run, hit, steal bases, and field is our better bet, rather than adding to our collection of amazing pitchers (no offence Mr. Schilling). It is not my decision. If it does happen, there will be a lot of Red Sox fans who will be upset to see him go.

    ~redsoxgirl78910

  117. luckylegends permalink
    December 4, 2007 8:07 pm

    Hey Curt Great Blog.First congrats On your signing for 08.Great to have you back.as a life long Sox fan and being 34 yrs old Ive suffered through some of the so called curse years in red Sox history and thats all changed now thanks in part to you!As far as Johan coming to boston heck yes I have to say although i also love seeing minor league talent coming up theres also part of me that says this player A and player B may never have this high a trading value again,alot of fans dont see that.they look at the 20 or 30 major league games a guy has under his belt and think wow theos crazy for trading this player.I know that if theo didnt pull the trigger on Johan and stayed with his young players there would be alot of doubting and moaning if they werent producing come June and July.So come on Sox fans wake up!Curt one more question for you before I go is someday will you write a book about the things you have wriitten in your note book?Id love to read that..LOLHey take care and good luck in 08 I cant wait!Thanks for your time,Jason A.

  118. patsoxceltsbrus permalink
    December 4, 2007 8:36 pm

    I wasnt real sure how steep I wanted thio To go on santana but after reading what curt thinks I would have to say im in favor of anything he says. Hes with out a doubt more in touch with baseball than I am so ill follow his way of thinking. I must admit Santana,becket,schill,dice-k and wake. WOW you would be looking @ 3 (santana,beck,schill) maybe 4 (add dice-k) pitchers that on 80% of MLB teams could be their #1. Wakes ERA was high last year but the bottom line is he gave us 17 wins last year. 17 wins out of your #5 man. Yeah I like that.

  119. mattytars permalink
    December 4, 2007 8:39 pm

    Just read something very interesting on Boston.com’s “The Buzz”…

    ‘Last updated: 12/04, 10:54 a.m.
    Ellsbury signs on with Scott Boras
    From ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick: “Scott Boras has apparently recovered from the sting of losing longtime client Kenny Rogers. According to two sources at the winter meetings, Red Sox outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury has dropped agent Joe Urbon and is now represented by Boras.”‘

    Looks like if we wind up trading Ellsbury in the Santana sweepstakes, we can come back in a couple years and sign him for a tremendous amount of money when his rookie contract is up. This also means if he pans out as everyone expects, look to see the Yankees chase this guy as their next Joe DiMaggio.

  120. venezolano080961 permalink
    December 4, 2007 9:01 pm

    Mis Saludos Curt y gracias por los dos titulos.

    Soy fanatico de los Medias Rojas desde el año que Luis Aparicio vistio la camiseta ( 1973 ). Ahi empezo mi amor y mucho dolor por este equipo.

    Si recibes este humilde mensaje creo los Twins estan pidiendo demasiado por Johan y creo se estan aprovechando de la situacion para sacarnos los mejores novatos.

    No olvidemos que parte muy importante del ultimo titulo fue la ayuda de ellos ( Pedroia, Ellsbury, Buchholz y por supuesto Papelbon, Youk, Lester y Delcarmen ).

    No creo que haga falta hipotecar el futuro y recuerda lo que te digo:

    Por primera vez en muchos años se ve que tenemos tan buen material como cualquiera e inclusive mejores que aquellos de comienzos de los 70 ( Fisk, Rice, Evans, Lynn y Burlesson ). Peter Gammos lo dijo la maldicion era solo falta de gerencia y pitcheo y creo ver excelente futuro en Buchholz, Lester, Masterson, Bowden y Bard y por supuesto ELLBURY.

    Pregunta: ¿ NO SERIA MEJOR Y MAS ECONOMICO IR DETRAS DE DAN HAREN ?

    Antonio

  121. geekbeatking permalink
    December 4, 2007 9:27 pm

    hey curt
    im new here and want to sound off by saying you are a major reason for this turnaround in the red sox franchise. i also want to express how excited i was that you signed with us again….thank you. your veteran wisdom and leadership is so important in the development of our young players.(not to mention your invaluble pitching skills). but enough ass kissing:p

    i hate the prospect of losing ellsbury in this deal. he is explosive,fearless and best of all ……clutch. our rotation was solid all year and I predict diasuke to have a better year due to the fact that the media blitz surrounding his arrival and sheer culture shock will be mellowed. the center field position is locked for years with a kid like him.

  122. December 4, 2007 10:35 pm

    As fans we have the luxury of being emotionally attached to players. I know the value of Santana. He was my #1 draft pick last year. You only draft the very best of the best pitchers in the first round.

    It is not a guarantee that Santana will be Santana in a Red Sox uniform. Call me silly but Gagne didn’t light the world on fire. Granted we would have had to go back in time and get the Gagne circa 2002-2004. I still think he is one of the best closers of the game..but I digress.

    I think the Twins should pony up some money and keep him. I think Lester is better than he has been. But I will trust in the people that gave us 2 World Series after 87 years of almosts. Theo & co did sign you in 2003 during the off season.

    Oh yeah and funner is one way of describing this off season. I’m just glad you, Wakey, Lowell and Timlin are back.

    -Di.

  123. jas62 permalink
    December 4, 2007 10:43 pm

    Curt,

    This thread speaks for itself (except for the trolls) and I hope you print it out for Jacoby to see how much this “Nation” loves him. Jacoby is that ONE in a million and the Sox must do everything they can to keep him. (Didn’t the scouts tell Mr. Henry ‘Trust me on this one’ when they visted Oregon a few years ago? Well, trust ME on this!!) The earlier reference to Babe Ruth’s trade is some powerful stuff. If we must pursue Johan, do it with anyone except Jacoby!
    It would be nice to see the popular vote work the way it should for once in this country.

    Love ya!

  124. mikie525 permalink
    December 4, 2007 10:54 pm

    My personal feeling is that i can’t see yankees not trying to stop the BEST TEAM IN BASEBALL from getting Santana. With Josh, Santana, Curt, Dice-K, And Wake…the Red Sox wouldn’t lose more then 40 games. all 5 pitchers can reach 20 wins. One of these pitchers is going to be the CY Yong winner hands down. Josh got robbed this year, but thats a different story.

    However, there is more issues that might be a factor and i would like to hear your opinion Curt. Do you think Santana would be ok being a number 2 pitcher when he could be a number 1 any where else. And do you think Josh going to be ok with Santana possibly making more money then him.(i think it wouldn’t matter because josh isn’t like A-Rod)

    I think the Lester package is the best deal for both teams. Lester is a future star. No matter what team Lester’s on, hes a number 2 or 3 pitcher but a great number 2 or 3 pitcher. The Elisbury trade make little to no sense. They have Delmon Young and dont need a young centerfielder as much as they would need a pitcher. In my opinion Hughes isnt a good pitcher, when your team could score 10 runs a game, any pitcher could win. Lester is the better pitcher hands down.

    Not even Yankee fans believe that New York won’t still try to get Santana. I dont believe anything i hear about the yankees saying they wont talk to Santana anymore. If the Red Sox land Santana and keep Elisbury…. well how does 10 championships in the next 10 years sound.

  125. jsasksaquestion permalink
    December 4, 2007 11:16 pm

    Curt – 1st off, great to have you back. You speak highly of Mikey’s sacs to stay (btw tyvm Mr. Lowell), but I’m sure you made your own. You talk about adding Johan to the #2 spot like Curt Schilling isn’t in the room. Class act.

    My $0.02 is there is no doubt Santana would be THE off-season acquisition. I’m a big fan of pitching and defense. My biggest disappointment was watching Alex G vacate the hole. It was great to watch Lugo bounce back, but on a team with some of the best O in the game, I don’t agree we needed more bat at SS. Alex is on top of the D-List in my book. I picture Youk, Pedroia, Mike, Alex, and Mr. Cora and wonder could there be a better horn? As far as Jacoby goes – my warped math analogy is this: Jacoby is to CF as Hanley was to SS. The potential is definitely there. But HR is to JB as JE is to JS. How can you NOT do it? Emotion is strong, but common sense must be stronger. Come on friends: Beckett, Santana, Schilling, DiceK, Wake, Pitcher(s) tbd Spring 08. Excuse me, I think i just druled. Like someone just said – it’s ALMOST not fair for the rest of baseball. Almost.

    I sit here trapped behind enemy lines on Long Island and do as much gloating for The Nation as I can to continue to demoralize The Empire. I miss NE, but it’s a great time to be a displaced NE fan on Long Island. Most of my friends are Yankee, Jet, and Knick fans. This is the best time I’ve had since I made the mistake of leaving NE. I said the WS in 4 at the beginning of the playoffs – they out and out laughed at me. Can you imagine? I pick up Newsday and read Boston Massacre FULL PAGE and almost wet my pants in 7/11. I watch MNF with my friends in public with my Pats hat on and take the abuse all night like the sport I am, but I’m the only guy smiling on the way out the door. Now about the ice…..NEway – I like smiling. I want to keep smiling. Let’s get this thing done. Besides – is anyone else but Curt Schilling remembering that we do have Coco Crisp on this team?

    Pitching & Tek and Defense. David, Manny, and JD will take care of that other thing.

  126. dsteed05 permalink
    December 4, 2007 11:32 pm

    Jacoby is definately one of those guys you see the other ball clubs bring up and light the league on fire and you think to yourself, ‘it would be great to bring up a guy like that and have him from the very beginning’.. Now that we have this exciting young kid, I feel he alone is a price to high to pay even for a well established 2 time cy young award winner like Santana… I know it sounds foolish, but you cant ignore the vibes you get everytime this kid takes the field or steps into the box.

    We have one of the best, if not, the best farm system in the majors.. It is within the realm of possibility to give up other great potential that most of Red Sox nation has yet to salivate over in order to get such a fantastic pitcher..

  127. jtsox78 permalink
    December 4, 2007 11:32 pm

    so as of tonite….looks like its a 5 to 1 deal
    sox giving up coco, lester, lowrie, masterton, and another minor leaguer…
    they are to resume talk at midnight…

  128. troyhobbs permalink
    December 4, 2007 11:38 pm

    Very tough choice. However, who is more suscetible to injury, a pitcher with major innings already on his arm or a young outfielder?

  129. rjclawson permalink
    December 5, 2007 12:09 am

    Before we knock Tim Wakefield, remember that in ’07 he was 17-12 while Santana was 15-13.

    Most starting pitchers these days say, “My job is to keep my team in the game,” which presumably means pitching a “quality start,” six innings, three earned runs. The rest is up to the bullpen.

    Currently, the Red Sox appear to have six pitchers who should be able to pitch a “quality start”: Beckett, Dice-K, Curt, Wakefield, Lester, and Bucholtz. Consider that rotations used to be just four pitchers. Now they’re five. Here we have SIX who could make up a rotation of quality starters.

    Consider, also, that Terry Francona’s management style provides a great deal of rest for his players. (A hitter could get eight hits in three games and sit on the bench the fourth day as a reward.) Consider, also, that he likes everybody to play, doesn’t like players to get rusty.

    Okay, with six potential starters, some of whom could actually profit by five days rest, why not build a six-man rotation? The older pitchers, Curt and Wake, could use the restorative time, Dice-Kay would be back to his Japanese routine, and the youngsters, Lester and Bucholtz would be “developing” their arm strength and preserving their shoulders for the stretch run. The only pitcher who might not like it could be Beckett, but Francona might find a way to accomodate him.

    I know this sounds unconventional, but tradition has it that times between starts have lengthened over the years. Some guys used to pitch both ends of a double header. Cy Young didn’t rack up all his wins in a four-man rotation. Baseball changes.

    Yes, it would be grand to have Santana on board, but we might have more than we need already in a situation combining veteran experience and promising young pitchers.

    If, in a six-man rotation, the starters AVERAGED 14 wins, that’s 84 wins without the bullpen’s contribution. Average 15 wins and the STARTERS win 90 games! No staff has accomplished such, not the vaunted Indians or Orioles.

    The Yankees are desperate for pitching. Wang, Pettite, and pray for Mussina?
    Aside from Wang, the other two experience serious bad patches each season. Santana would obviously help them, but say, with their great hitting, he wins 20 games in ’08, and Wang wins 18, do Pettite and Mussina win more than a dozen each? Who fills in with enough wins to have their five-man rotation average 15 wins? Even if they find the arms, the starters will compile approximately 75 wins in a good year. That’s a lot of weight on a bullpen that has to take them to the “prospect” Chamberlain, and the aging Rivera.

    Now, back to Francona and his method of using all of his players and giving them plenty of days off to keep them fresh and happy. He’s got a fine infield for his pitchers, with Alex Cora able to spell at at least two positions.

    He’ll have a fine Fenway outfield with Manny, Ellsbury, and Drew. If the Sox KEEP Coco, they’ll have multiple advantages: a superb reserve outfielder who can spell the rookie, Ellsbury, take over center while the rookie spells Manny or Drew, or play either of the corner fields to spell those outfielders. He’s a perfect late-inning defensive replacement. He’s a switch hitter who runs the bases brilliantly. He can pinch run. He, clearly, has great versatility and can play frequently in many situations.

    Crisp’s bat MAY improve, or he may learn to get on base more with walks and bunts. If so, he’ll turn trips to first into doubles. As can Ellsbury and Lugo. When I first saw the bases loaded with the three of them this year, I thought, this may be the first time I’ll witness a triple steal!

    Speed kills and we’re loaded with it. Drew can run the bases. And even if they’re not the fastest on the clock, Lowell and Varitek are heady base runners. Put bats like Manny’s, Lowell’s, and Drew’s in the midst of this beautifully distracting speed, and we’ll have an exciting and high-scoring offense, and that’s without even mentioning Pedroia and Youk.

    I’m not advocating standing pat. I think the management must stay on top of building the best bullpen possible, which means middle relief. And, I think they have to consider back-up catching and catching for the future…and, of course, some young power hitters to eventually replace Manny and Papi.

    But to lose the opportunity of having SO much pitching, such depth of pitching, and such versatility on both defense and offense, might not be worth spending a fine player(Ellsbury), good prospects, and fortune for Santana.

    One more thing: I believe the Sox can continue to hit Santana, even the young lefty, Jacoby. If Josh faces a Yankee Santana, I’ll put my money on Beckett’s and the lineup’s speed.

    Shameless O’Clawson

  130. ks999000 permalink
    December 5, 2007 9:05 am

    Trading Elisbury is a mistake. He is something special. It would be like trading a young Fred Lynn or Yaz.

  131. huntlulu permalink
    December 5, 2007 12:57 pm

    has anybody thought about the 33 homeruns santana gave up last year and that his era is a run higher and that he is 6 years older than lester ellsbury and buchhloz give the kids a chance i would much rather watch them than santana ther the most exciting kids in baseball don,t pull a lou gorman.

  132. bosoxkid99 permalink
    December 5, 2007 5:42 pm

    Let me thin here. Some crappy 4 starter at best in lester or a multi time cy young award winner who is still only 28?
    Im going with santana. Lester is not even in the rotation unless some one gets hurt. I vote yes for lester to be dealt.

    As for ellsbury and bucholtz that is a different story. He will start this year over coco who we can deal with lester for johan anyway. Not to mention that bucholtz threw a nono in like his 3rd career start. I think they have a chance at a hall of fame careers after what we saw late this past year. Maybe i am jumping the gun but to me those two are indespensible. But if they deal bucholz we still have plenty of pitching talent

  133. wgsportsdesk permalink
    December 5, 2007 8:49 pm

    Hey, Curt, I think that trading Ellsbury for Santana doesn’t make much sense all-around, especially since we won the World Series because of how dominant our pitching was I think we need to focus on our hitting for this year and we also need to focus on getting a backup catcher for Varitek since Mirabelli is no longer on the team. Also, if you get the chance check out the website I made.

  134. loveyanks permalink
    December 7, 2007 2:58 pm

    should there really be a debate about getting santana? if anybody should know. pitching wins champioships. you`re team won it this year, with great pitching.trade ellsbury. if you look at the history of redsox teams.you could have won alot of ws if you had better pitching. get santana, and you’ll be our daddy for many years to come:)……

  135. patrice37 permalink
    December 8, 2007 9:18 pm

    There is absolutely no ballplayer worth trading Ellsbury for. While Santana has a proven record of greatness, Ellsbury shows all signs of superstardom. Santana could have arm trouble in his next start, look at Matt Clement. As for size, remember the very young Ted Williams? This kid is special and has already won post season games -before even being eligible for rookie of the year! He has not even played enough to be called a rookie.
    Mark my words, this Ellsbury will win more games than any pitcher could in a season. He will do it with the bat, the glove, and/or on the bases with that blazing speed.
    Unless Theo can trade for Ted Williams in HIS rookie year, Jacoby Ellsbury should be, and remain untouchable. Worse still: If he is traded, we who love the Red Sox will be haunted by Ellsbury for the next 15-20 years whenever we watch Sportscenter!

  136. loveyanks permalink
    December 10, 2007 7:27 pm

    patrice37

    sorry, dude i disagree.you tell me that another player won’t come up in your farm system? maybe not as good as ellbury, but good enough to, make up
    for the lost of him. and he dosen’t have to be that great.when you have good starting pitching like you do, it will make up for, any super star hitter.
    wow! dude, what a starting five.

    1 becket
    2 santana
    3 shil
    4 wakefield
    5 buchold, lester?
    wow.talk about a murders row, hitting dosen’t win it dude, pitching does.just look at you.re history, that in it’s self should tell you something.don’t get me wrong, you.re kid is quite the ball player,but 10 yrs of santana? hard to resist……………best wishes

    example. what there pitching staff did to us.you’re starting 5.

  137. rhielm permalink
    December 11, 2007 7:36 pm

    I think Ellsbury and 2 prospects is not enough to get the best pitcher in baseball that is just hitting his prime. Coco and Lester is a better deal, but its still not worth what we will get in return and considering what the Twins need and how their system works (their a small market team without the big bucks the the Red Sox has). They can only succeed with young cheap talent. They desperately need a Center fielder and it only fair that they get a major league starting pitcher in return plus a major league position player for THE BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL. The only way to get Santana that would be advantageous and fair to both teams is to give Ellsbury, Lester, and a top tier minor leaguer. And I say go for it, it would be totally worth it to get an unstoppable starting rotation.
    Santana
    Becket
    Schilling
    Dice-K
    Wakefield
    Buckholtz

    Even without Lester, thats 6 outstanding pitchers.

  138. rhielm permalink
    December 11, 2007 8:27 pm

    Its seriously ridiculous to say that a rookie (Jacoby Ellsbury), who had a good 2 first months in the majors, is is more valuable than than Johan Santana. I wouldn’t even think twice. Give Ellsbury and Lester. It would be totally worth it. How many times has a prospect looked to be something amazing and then didn’t pan out, where Johan is proven, still young and just hitting his prime.

    Blind loyalty to one player is ridiculous, its a business and a business that will get more wins with Johan in the rotation.

  139. bigdaddy26 permalink
    December 12, 2007 6:47 pm

    I cant believe all the people that are willing to give up Jacoby Ellsbury just to get Johan Santana. Dont get me wrong, he’s a great pitcher, but we won a world series without him, and to give up the two young guys who helped us win it doesn.t make sense. Why committ all that money to him, when we could use it for Papelbon, Lester, Bucholz, and Ellsbury.t Besides, we have the best pitcher in baseball in Josh Beckett.

  140. twinsfan34 permalink
    December 13, 2007 9:17 am

    Coming from a twins fan i dont believe any of the redsox fans realize just how special a guy like santana is. In a offensive depleted lineup like we have here in minnesota he still manages 15-17 wins per season.. put that into the powerful lineup of boston and hes a 20 win pitcher almost every season. I understand completely with how you guys do not want to part with ellsbury, and however how u can not compare him to the recently departed Torii Hunter i think giving up a possibly 2nd or 3rd rotation spot pitcher and a electrifying(yet considerbly unproven) center fielder is well worth it for the best pitcher in the game. I cannot begin to explain the extreme saddness i would feel to see Johan Santana is any jersey but the minnesota twins.. every start you watched of his you felt that you were watching someone and something special. And from wha ti know of how boston fans are extrememly dedicated i know you all will get the exact same feeling when watching johan start at fenway park.. all i wish is we (twins fans) could have just one more start to say our final farewells to Johan Santana.

  141. soxrulebaby04 permalink
    December 13, 2007 3:29 pm

    I have to agree with Mr. Schilling on this one.

    Although Jacoby is (and has been) a great addition in such a short time for the Sox, with the deal in front of us we need to say goodbye. Ellsbury did win us games and really caused a spark in the later months of our Championship run. However, like the twins fan said above me, Johan has made something out of almost nothing his whole career.
    Last year Johan went something like 17-13 with a 3.3 ERA. However, he was in the top five in ERA going in to September and you have to remember by this time the Twins were already down and out. Furthermore, it’s good to note that Johan lost atleast 4 games where he gave up less than two earned runs. Think about that for a second…This same thing happened to Beckett last season twice and both times afterword you could clearly see how he felt in his press conferences. Take this four losses and add them to the win total and now Johan is 21-9. That’s with an offense that is straight up bad. Wow.
    Now for the things that may scare Sox fans. Santana led the league last year in homeruns allowed. Many people think that he roamed away from his slider and used the change too much and that’s what caused the major difference. Although Santana says otherwise, I think that this was clearly somewhat the reason on why he was giving up a few more. Second, against Cleveland (particularly Sabathia and Carmona) Santana went something like 1-7. However, you have to remember that the Twins were only putting up three runs against these guys on a good night.
    Minnesota has done a lot for the New England in the past few years. They have given us players that have turned out to be a thing of beauty (so far). You have to start with Big Papi. That must suck to watch him be the finalist in MVP voting every single season since he’s left. Then we move on to KG. Although the Wolves got big Al and company, it’s very hard to say that we didn’t get the better of the deal since we stand at 18-2. Hell, you could even say that they gave us Randy Moss and that he just took a pitstop in Oakland. C’mon Minnesota, give us one more to have a bring home another World Series.

    Beckett, Santana, Matsuzaka, Schilling, Buckholtz/Wake
    Are you kidding me?

  142. December 14, 2007 12:04 am

    WHY DO THE SOX HAVE TO GO AFTER SANTANA AND GIVE UP ONE OF THE BEST PROSPECTS IN YEARS. WHY NOT GO AFTER THE SECOND BEST PITCHER OUT THERE AND KEEP THE FUTURE STARS.THEY WOULD STILL HAVE THE BEST STAFF IN THE AMERICAN LEAGUE. THEY HAVE MILLIONS TIED UP IN THE PITCHING STAFF NOW.

  143. thebronxjuicers permalink
    December 18, 2007 1:02 am

    i would hate to see ellsbury go too but were talkin johan santana here… and not just for one year… were talkin for the next 5-6-7 years. the dynasty has already been started and God I LOVE IT! Curt ur the man and love ur atittude towards this game and the redsox.i dont know if i like seein the yankees loose or the red sox win better…. and wen they both happen everything is just right in the world! Lets get santana and shop for a center fielder in 2 or 3 years… crisp will do for now if we get johan

  144. tburke1915 permalink
    December 19, 2007 11:26 pm

    How come every time something happens in baseball you have to open your big mouth. How do we know you didn’t do steroids ? How is it that no one from Boston worth mentioning was in the report ? How did Mitchell, who happens to work for the Red Sox (how ironic) was put in charge. Curt, next time you have a thought, let it go……

  145. tmarch permalink
    December 20, 2007 1:41 am

    Curt,

    I’d have to say you are wrong about the best lefthander in the game is Santana. Maybe up to this point, possibly. But there is a new lefthander everyone better look out for…Cole Hamels!

    A true Philly Phan!

  146. tambaru permalink
    December 20, 2007 10:07 am

    Dear Curt,

    The last time I looked, in this country we are innocent until proven guilty. You are asking for Roger Clemens and others to prove their innocence, first someone has to be able to prove they are guilty. This report comes down to word against word. Brian McNamee has said he administered these substances, but he has no proof. Just being accused of something doesn’t make you guilty.

  147. darin992002 permalink
    December 20, 2007 11:18 am

    I just want to say I think Curt Shilling is a total scumbag and probably the most hated player in all of baseball. Why cant he ever keep his trap shut?
    Nobody cares what he thinks or says, he is irrelavent and I cant wait for the day he will just go away……………………….

  148. drofnats permalink
    December 20, 2007 11:50 am

    Well…I look at the roid issue going on for some time with probably little results; which will be unfortunate. I look at it a few ways.,,,starting with Canseco. If what he stated in his book is false…why hasn’t he been sued many times over? With regards to Clemens…I’ve always felt he was using in some way, shape or form. Just look at his body from where it was…the same way with Bonds and McGuire. Plus…as Curt mentions…let’s see if Roger sues anyone…? I doubt it. Finally…I think there have been 2 home run leaders in a season and 1 total home run leader; Babe Ruth and Roger Maris for the season and Hank Aaron for total home runs (although he did have 2250 more at bats then Ruth). Also…if you wanted to get pickey…all of their stats would be based on the same amount of games, at bats, etc…in which case there would be only Ruth as the HR leader in both categories.

  149. jwbarbaro permalink
    December 20, 2007 12:31 pm

    IT DOES NOT SURPRISE ME THAT SCHILLING POPED OFF ON THIS ISSUE BEFORE ALL THE FACTS ARE IN. I THINK HE IS BUCKING FOR A JOB IN THE MEDIA NOW THAT HIS ARM IS TIRING. MY THOUGHTS ARE IF MITCHELL COULDN’T NAME ALL THE PEOPLE IN BASEBALL THAT WERE SUSPECTED THEN HE SHOULD NOT HAVE NAMED ANY. PEOPLE LIKE SCHILLING ARE QUICK TO RUSH TO JUDGEMENT WITH THEIR “OPINIONS” I WOULD HAVE HAD MORE RESPECT FOR HIM IF HE HAD PUBLISHED “NO COMMENT” UNTIL ALL THE FACTS ARE IN. I ONLY HOPE NOBODY PRINTS POSSIBLE USAGE BY HIM WITH AS LITTLE EVIDENCE MITCHELL USED. WHAT I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO KNOW IS HOW MANY “USERS” DID NOT MAKE IT BIG IN SPORTS AND AND A DOCTORS STUDY ON HOW THESE SUSTANCES WORK AND IMPROVE YOUR NATURAL ABILITIES.. I LEARNED NOTHING MORE FROM THE MITCHELL REPORT THEN I ALREADY SUSPECTED.

  150. sully64 permalink
    December 21, 2007 8:39 pm

    Dear tambaru:
    The last time I checked this was a free country and we could all speak our minds. Whether you agree with the message or not he still has a right to say what he feels. As for me, I feel betrayed by the players who did use because it is an unfair advantage. If it wasn’t, than we wouldn’t have some players risking health problems in the future for inflated stats now, and any records that were set are forever tarnished by this scandle. I hope the image of baseball can be repaired quickly and we can get back to enjoying Americas pastime. Ultimately, in these times more often than not it is the appearance of what’s right, not necesarily what’s right that counts. As for what Curt said, well I don’t always agree with his message or how it’s delivered but I admire his conviction and respect his right to his opinion, just like I respect yours.

  151. hutch109 permalink
    December 24, 2007 3:56 pm

    Yes, you are correct it is a free country and you can speak your mind, but as one person once said, just maybe some of us should not. As for mine, I must say that it gets a bit old and I stress old when after “ALL” these years people are worried about what happened in the past. Personally who cares. Now that being said, the best way to fix the issue is if you get caught, you are out of baseball, bottom line. The fine leaders of baseball would do themselves (not just the fans) great justice if they had such a rule. It is pathetic and at best stupid to keep and allow individuals to use anything other than talent to play the game, make the money and enjoy the privileges that the rest of would love. Of course, I say this because in the business that I am in if you do anything that is unethical you are out of the business. No second chances and there shouldn’t be. Curt has some points, but we can’t change the past , we can only learn from it. enjoy the holidays

  152. fisk64 permalink
    January 24, 2008 1:19 am

    Curt,

    The Red Sox sacrificed a wonderful prospect in Kason Gabbard last year in exchange for that “loser” Gagne, who was also found to be involved with steroids. I always believed (still do) it would be absolutely fantastic to land Chad Cordero from the Nationals. He’s proven himself over three strong seasons with the struggling Nationals. I believe he would make for a great long relief/set-up man in front of Oki and Pape. What do you think of this?? Maybe you could nudge Theo about this. The Sox are obviously strong in the starting rotation. We don’t need Santana. We need Cordero.

    Additionally, I am shocked, but not surprised at the jerks who have to come here on your site, only to ridicule and harass you. As a life-long BoSox fan (43 yrs old), I was ecstatic to see you come to Boston and just as happy to see you stay. You are welcome here forever.
    I have an 8 yr old son who has to endure his mother’s side (Yankee fans) and my family’s side (BoSox fans). His mother’s side is antagonistic and insisted he be a Yankee fan, while we Sox fans simply showed him the greatness that is Red Sox Nation without pressure. So he sides with the BoSox and loves you and the rest of the crew! I am a Connecticut native residing in Philadelphia, but remain true to the BoSox (and Pats!!).
    One of my goals is to get my son to a BoSox game at Fenway someday, but it’s impossible to get tix!!

    Wish you the best of success in Boston!! Catch you soon!!

    fisk64

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